Vail to buy Stowe?

[4aprice]

I don't think its a terrible deal, I just felt like we'd get more bang for our buck using the MAX Pass.

How much was the MC Pass?
Does anyone have any info or stats on how well it sold?

Mountain Collective is much cheaper then Max. I would/will look into it when I target Aspen as my prime vacation spot some year and obviously will try to plan visits to some of the others on it as well. (Alta/Snowbird, Sun Valley, T-Ride and Taos ) Follow ABC as I think she's on it (along with Epic). The 17-18 pass products should start to roll out in the next couple of weeks.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[burski]

The 4000 acres was the biggest laugh for me as well - they must be assuming everything between SB and MRG is skiable terrain....

Haha yeah that a big ol stretch for sure. As far as the east goes its sitting on a HUGE chunk of skiable property but 4000 acres is ridiculous.

I imagine Sugarbush will do fine in the end. It will be the goto place in Northern VT if you want a large diverse mtn without dealing with ridiculous amounts of people. It would make sense for them to hook on with MC for sure. In the long run if they keep the same prices people may come back after dealing with the shitshow that will become Stowe.

 

[mbedle]

Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.

 

[dlague]

I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense. Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain. Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.

If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.

I pitched that argument before. It is two tickets but all purchases after that are 50% off. So there is a play of sorts rather than paying the full season price of the local resort.

From a business perspective, touting your place as more "natural" and "least crowded" means that you have lost the race.

I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work. If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail. I'd be looking to form alliances. I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them. He needs to be proactive about this.

They probably don't have the money, but folding Sugarbush into the Peak Resorts portfolio would make a lot of sense. Having Hunter and Sugarbush on the same pass would appeal to a LOT of New Yorkers. And you've also got the Boston crowd covered with the New Hampshire resorts. But maybe since they already have Mount Snow it would be diminishing returns for Peak.

With POWDR partnering with Intrawest on the MAX Pass and Peak doing their own Multi Resort thing, the independently owned places are starting to fall behind the times. Even the smaller resorts have something going with the Freedom Pass.

 

[machski]

Mountain Collective is much cheaper then Max. I would/will look into it when I target Aspen as my prime vacation spot some year and obviously will try to plan visits to some of the others on it as well. (Alta/Snowbird, Sun Valley, T-Ride and Taos ) Follow ABC as I think she's on it (along with Epic). The 17-18 pass products should start to roll out in the next couple of weeks.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

MC is cheaper than an outright Max, not the add on Max passes for those who can do that. MC is cheaper because it includes less days on the pass (granted after the days at resorts are used, it gives 50% off unlimited days).

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[Highway Star]

...Vail Resorts looks forward to integrating Stowe Mountain Resort into its Epic Pass and other season pass products for the 2017-18 winter season, subject to the acquisition closing. With the Epic Pass, Vermont skiers and snowboarders will have unlimited access locally at Stowe at an attractive price as well as the best of the West at Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge and Keystone in Colorado; Park City in Utah; Heavenly, Northstar and Kirkwood in Tahoe; and Whistler Blackcomb in British Columbia, Canada.

Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???

Note they say "integrate" and not add.

 

[dlague]

Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???

Note the say "integrate" and not add.

You are right! The Epic Pass was $809 last year so it will be closer to $900 and will include Stowe, just like they included Whistler with out an up charge.

 

[VTKilarney]

Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???

I do - or at least I believe that there will not be a surcharge for Stowe. Bummer for you Killington folks, I know.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???

Note they say "integrate" and not add.

I imagine they will need a slight price increase, perhaps $900? Even if it's $1000, I dont know how you could argue it's not going to be the best pass option in the east for many. Look on the bright side, it will definitely pull some people away from Killington.

 

[hovercraft]

They did it with Whistler they will do it with Stowe. So yes I do believe it!

 

[Highway Star]

You are right! The Epic Pass was $809 last year so it will be closer to $900 and will include Stowe, just like they included Whistler with out an up charge.

Five days at Whistler are included on the 16/17 full Epic pass. A full whistler pass was about $1200+ on early purchase. What resorts are on the 17/18 Epic will be announced in March.

I know plenty of Killington skiers that get epic/epic local passes for trips out west, so even limited Stowe access will benefit them.

I’m guessing an Epic pass will give 10 days at Stowe, Epic Local 5 days with Blackouts. A full Stowe pass will be in the $1200 to $1500 range early purchase, and have all theepic resort access out west.Even thiswill uncomfortably increase crowds.

Anything else would result in abhorrent crowding at Stowe.

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/resorts/whistler-blackcomb.aspx

 

[snoseek]

Also worth noting that the epic pass has been steadily climbing every year. Good plan on Vails part hooking everyone, starting with a sub 600 dollar pass a decade ago and slowly rising it while increasing sales. Its still a good value but what about in five years when its gone past a grand. Is it still a good deal to ski with all those crowds?

 

[deadheadskier]

I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense. Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain. Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.

If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.

Agreed. I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product. Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting. Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days. Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic. All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.

 

[Highway Star]

Stowe's nosebleed prices:

https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/

 

[EPB]

Stowe might well end up on the Epic Local pass that comes with limited blackout dates. I had it the last two years when i was living in the Midwest near one of Vail's ant hills. The first year, it was $550 while the local Vail-owned hill's pass was priced at $420. I believe the Epic Local cost ~$580 last year and got bumped up to $609 this year. I'd expect Stowe to make it on the Epic Local in some capacity for about $650 next year - probably as a member of the group capped at 10 days.

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/passes/epic-local-pass.aspx

 

[hovercraft]

Not for long

 

[cdskier]

Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.

Exactly. He didn't say "on trail acreage". Sugarbush openly encourages skiing of all their terrain including Slide Brook. Is every acre of that 4000 skiable? No, but neither are every single acre of in-bounds terrain at other resorts. He didn't lie, you just need to interpret it properly.

I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work. If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail. I'd be looking to form alliances. I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them. He needs to be proactive about this.

For all we know he's already been talking with those areas.

Not to turn this into another Sugarbush thread, but you have to admit that Win is indeed concerned. They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south and its reputation. Stowe was just sold to a HUGE ski resort player. And I've read that Killington's Base Area expansion was finally approved....whether it happens or not we have yet to see. So once again Sugarbush has to try to distinguish itself from these two.

And for the record I like Win. Always have. He's done a great job. But let's understand that it is a tough business and competition is fierce.

"Concerned", sure. "Worried" or "afraid", no. I really don't think Sugarbush needs to do a tremendous amount to distinguish themselves. The first thing that drew me (and many people I know) to SB years ago was that it wasn't the party atmosphere giant K or the ritzy, super-expensive Stowe. It was a laid back area with great terrain, great snow, and great people where you could relax and ski. Stowe loses the super-expensive stigma on season passes with the Vail purchase, but now they stand to gain substantial crowds (beyond the reported crowds they've seen this year with things like the new young adult pass they offered). Maybe the projection of crowds at Stowe is being overblown, but maybe not. I know personally I can't stand crowds and that would be a factor for me. Maybe other people don't mind waiting in lift lines or being stuck in traffic getting up the access road. Good for them if so. I'm certainly not alone in the demographic that wouldn't want to deal with that though.

Ugh. I feel like a broken record. They've ALWAYS had to compete with Stowe to the north and Killington to the south I'm pretty sure that he either said at a passholder meeting I attended or said on an AZ Challenge that they compared themselves to Stowe and used the same approach--not to underprice their product (like ASC did) and to focus on offering quality over quantity. Hence, why they always were on the upper end of season pass prices since he took over.

That said, their pass offerings have responded to pressure by becoming so fragmented.

Having to compete with Stowe and K is one thing, trying to copy either is another. Of course they have to compete with each other. My take is Win's point was not that they wanted to copy Stowe, but simply that they were not going to cut prices simply to sell passes. They were still substantially below Stowe in pricing (before now obviously). I've made posts before on the pricing topic (including one in this thread comparing pricing with K showing that SB was not by any means out of line). While they may be "on the upper end", where else would you expect them to be? With what SB has to offer, I see no reason for them to be offering full adult unrestricted passes for less than places like K. Stowe was always a substantial outlier. SB was then in the next grouping. As long as SB stays there and doesn't become an outlier by themselves, then I think they are fine.

I do - or at least I believe that there will not be a surcharge for Stowe. Bummer for you Killington folks, I know.

Agreed, I see no reason why Vail would substantially raise Epic prices just because of the Stowe addition. Do I think it will be $809 like last year? No, I would expect a modest increase (as they've done many years recently). My prediction would be Epic will be somewhere in the $825-850 range. Could it go all the way to $900? Maybe, but I don't quite think it will.

 

[benski]

Is this an high school english class? Why are we putting so much effort into understanding Win's mood?

 

[EPB]

Not for long

I’m not 100% sure if that was a response to my comment. If you think Stowe won’t be on the Epic Pass, I don’t think you understand Vail’s strategy. The whole point of the thing is to lure people out west so they spend big $$$ on a vacation there. That’s why Stowe is such a great area for Vail to buy - because of its reach to metro NYC, Boston, and Montreal. The biggest question I have is whether they think that 10 days at Stowe will be compelling enough for easterners to buy it over some of the other options mentioned here.

If you’re referring to pricing, the lineage is pretty clear.

 

[mbedle]

Hopefully with the Stowe purchase being done a lot earlier than the Whistler purchase, which I think was done partly into this season, I would expect that Stowe and Whistler will both be fully incorporated into the Epic Pass next season. Hopefully, they will ofter a Stowe only pass cheaper than the Epic pass.