Vail to buy Stowe?

[farlep99]

My single concern about the purchase is the overcrowding. On the Friday before New Years it took some people 1.5hr to get up to the hill & then when they got there they couldn't find parking. Unacceptable at any area let alone one charging $100+ for a day ticket. The high prices of both day tickets and seasons passes tend to keep the crowds manageable for most of the season for the most part (other than the parking situation, which is atrocious). MLK Saturday was very busy, but lines were no longer than about 10-15min. Epic pass could blow that up.

In saying this, it would be nice to be able to afford to ski at my closest mountain. Even the locals' pass is $1300+. And there are blackout days. For slightly less than a Stowe black-out local pass, you can get an unlimited Smuggs AND an unlimited MRG pass. That's just stupid. Yet somehow, people justify the Stowe costs. I just don't see the value in their pass options. But for $809 though I think I'd make it work. I'd just avoid Saturdays which I pretty much already do

 

[dlague]

Don't you have the Mountain Collective, and Max passes too for mountain owned by different operatores along with smaller local deals like Solitude and Brighton. But i am shocked to here its that cheep. Its not for sale so i can't see the price on there website.

None of the other passes. $609 was the before April 1st price for Epic Local. We were in the middle of moving and my wife snagged them at the last minute. We also use the Gems Card which I would this would be a great partner for The Ride and Ski Card.

Back on topic, if Vail buys Stowe, it is more of a reach to increase visits to western resorts with a nice offering for those they would attract to buy the pass from the east. With their pass pricing it would really stir up the apple cart. I do not really see a lot of Colorado folks taking vacations to ski Stowe. I would but that is because I am visiting family so I would consider catching a day while there.

Some of the Midwest ski areas might travel to Stowe for vacations as well.

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[cdskier]

We're jumping to conclusions a bit that Vail would simply add Stowe to the Epic pass at the current price if the deal rumors are true. Maybe they would put Stowe on the Epic pass but with restrictions on number of days. Or maybe they would up the price of Epic (although even doing that it would still surely be significantly cheaper than the current Stowe pass). Or maybe they would keep Stowe separate and offer Stowe pass-holders an "Epic Add-On" type of option for an extra cost.

I do agree though that if they simply added it to Epic that could certainly have an impact to Stowe's skier visits. How big the impact would be is hard to predict.

 

[benski]

I had heard a rumor that Vail was looking into buying Stratton, so maybe there is more interest in the east then previously thought.

A couple of areas in the east might cause me to look into it. What I wonder is will moves (or potential moves) like this force some of the "independents" (Smuggs, Bush, Jay etc) to team up for survival? Like I said in the Max Pass thread, I'm loving my season so far and planned the whole thing around those options.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

Seems like a smart move. Sugarbush and Mad River so I guess thats not so unlikely. Sugarbush would need to drop there pass prices to compete with an epic pass, probably to below what a Stowe pass is.

 

[MG Skier]

......The Balsams and an eventual buyer for Jay/Burke...things may look/feel a little different out this way in the East.
Are we still Skiing the East if it is all owned by the West?

 

[farlep99]

We're jumping to conclusions a bit that Vail would simply add Stowe to the Epic pass at the current price if the deal rumors are true. Maybe they would put Stowe on the Epic pass but with restrictions on number of days. Or maybe they would up the price of Epic (although even doing that it would still surely be significantly cheaper than the current Stowe pass). Or maybe they would keep Stowe separate and offer Stowe pass-holders an "Epic Add-On" type of option for an extra cost.

I do agree though that if they simply added it to Epic that could certainly have an impact to Stowe's skier visits. How big the impact would be is hard to predict.

I initially thought the same thing- that they probably wouldn't add Stowe to Epic. Why would you if you already have a base of customers paying $1300-$1900 for a pass. The first thing I did is look what they did with their recent Whistler purchase. I believe the Whistler unlimited pass was $1,650. They're adding them to Epic. I think for this year they didn't because I don't think Vail closed that deal until the fall (or maybe late summer??). But they'll be added for next season. So if they're doing that with Whistler I'd think the same may apply to Stowe. Not a definite, but seems likely. Of course, they may raise the price of the Epic pass as well.

 

[Keelhauled]

My single concern about the purchase is the overcrowding. On the Friday before New Years it took some people 1.5hr to get up to the hill & then when they got there they couldn't find parking. Unacceptable at any area let alone one charging $100+ for a day ticket. The high prices of both day tickets and seasons passes tend to keep the crowds manageable for most of the season for the most part (other than the parking situation, which is atrocious). MLK Saturday was very busy, but lines were no longer than about 10-15min. Epic pass could blow that up.

I gotta assume Vail would have planned a way to mitigate that. My guess would be to use Toll House, stick a new parking lot/garage down there and run a six pack up the hill.

 

[cdskier]

Seems like a smart move. Sugarbush and Mad River so I guess thats not so unlikely. Sugarbush would need to drop there pass prices to compete with an epic pass, probably to below what a Stowe pass is.

I don't necessarily agree that they "need" to drop their pass prices to compete with Epic. Sugarbush has a lot of tiered pricing depending on your age. For anyone under 35 or over 65, Sugarbush's pass prices (at the early rates) were still lower than the Epic pass. That 36-64 range is something Sugarbush would need to look closely at before simply dropping the price. You also have to consider what K does as right now SB and K are very close in price at their early rates for that age range so Stowe isn't their only comparable. There are still a lot of people that would buy the SB pass even if they don't drop the price. I could see SB either simply holding the price at this year's level or dropping it slightly (say $100). But I think it is highly unlikely they would drop it to the point of trying to directly compete with Epic at least the first year. If SB saw a significant drop off in sales, then maybe the year after they would lower the price more.

And of course we still don't know whether the deal is even real or what pricing strategy Vail would use for including Stowe on the pass. They could surprise people and throw a curve-ball and change their Epic pass structure a bit. Lot's of speculation with little facts at this point.

 

[nhskier1969]

I dont think Vail owning Stowe and/or Stratton is going to put anyone out of business. There are only so many beds, parking and so much uphill capacity that either of them can handle. If anything the potential overcrowding of the ski vacation experience will drive people to other mountains.

I disagree. I am a season pass holder at SB. I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass. There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west. In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG

 

[deadheadskier]

I gotta assume Vail would have planned a way to mitigate that. My guess would be to use Toll House, stick a new parking lot/garage down there and run a six pack up the hill.

That certainly could help with resort arrival.

On hill, I'd have to imagine the Mountain Triple gets upgraded to a HSQ at minimum. Crowding on hill would still be insane with a cheap pass without a lot more than just lift upgrades for Toll House and the Triple. Additional uphill and downhill capacity would have to happen or the weekend ski experience would become completely awful.

Here's a look at the original plan from 2000 with the addition of several lifts, trails and a lot of widening. Note the supersizing of Lookout and Chin Clip. What a travesty that would be after already neutering the Lift Line, National and Nose Dive decades ago.

Also of relevance to this thread, when this plan was put together you can still see the connector trail coming over from Smuggs.

http://segroup.com/projects/stowe-mountain-resort/

 

[dlague]

BTW Whistler is already part of both the Epic and Epic Local Passes. I could go there today! They added to the passes with no up charge or anything. Also if they do pick up Stowe I guarantee it will be part of their passes - that is what they do. And just because they by Stowe they would not significant increase the pass price. That thought is too funny. There will not be an add-on either. They bought Whistler and did not do that so Stowe will not cause that either.

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[dlague]

I disagree. I am a season pass holder at SB. I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass. There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west. In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG

That would be their plan to get more New Englanders to buy the pass for a local hill and many would now consider all the other destinations. Whistler, Colorado, Utah, Tahoe. Not seeing this the other way around.

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[Jully]

Just look at other mountains out west, they do not have pass prices equally as low as Vail's, especially in areas where Vail's presence isn't as big (i.e. Utah).

I do think another big pull is that the Vail name means a lot to the 3-5 day/year skier. They would be drawn to that name a product even more than they might be drawn to the Stowe name alone.

I'd be worried that Stowe would lose some of its character and become even more upscale than it already is. High speed lifts everywhere would make it ski a lot different than it currently does despite having a multitude of HSQs already. I just hope they wouldn't widen or touch the front 4 in an effort to increase capacity or something.

 

[deadheadskier]

BTW Whistler is already part of both the Epic and Epic Local Passes. I could go there today! They added to the passes with no up charge or anything. Also if they do pick up Stowe I guarantee it will be part of their passes - that is what they do. And just because they by Stowe they would not significant increase the pass price. That thought is too funny. There will not be an add-on either. They bought Whistler and did not do that so Stowe will not cause that either.

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Not really an apples to apples comparison between Stowe and Whistler. Whistler is the largest resort in North America. They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business. Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe. Perhaps the Epic Pass only includes Stowe midweek. If you want to ski Stowe on the weekends, it's another $500 or something in that neighborhood. That would still represent a significant savings over current pricing at Stowe and offer the benefit of out west destinations on the pass. $1309 also wouldn't be so cheap that people would start jumping over from Sugarbush, Jay, Smuggs etc.

 

[rtjcbrown]

I disagree. I am a season pass holder at SB. I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass. There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west. In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG

Totally agree with this assessment

 

[Jully]

They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business. Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe.

Do you think Vail realizes that or cares though? I think about the crowds that I've heard of at Vail itself, their day with 50,000 skier visits or whatever it was. Is that not beyond capacity (not sure what their on hill crowding looked like)?

 

[snoseek]

I don't personally think stowe would be alone. I bet they pick up something else as well to go along with it. There's alot of potential real estate up for purchase in new England right now. If they move in they will set up shop and compete.

 

[cdskier]

Not really an apples to apples comparison between Stowe and Whistler. Whistler is the largest resort in North America. They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business. Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe. Perhaps the Epic Pass only includes Stowe midweek. If you want to ski Stowe on the weekends, it's another $500 or something in that neighborhood. That would still represent a significant savings over current pricing at Stowe and offer the benefit of out west destinations on the pass. $1309 also wouldn't be so cheap that people would start jumping over from Sugarbush, Jay, Smuggs etc.

That was my thinking as well. Just because they did it with Whistler doesn't mean they would automatically do it with Stowe. Could they? Sure, but like you said they also could go with a lot of other options. It is way too premature to assume we know anything about what they will "definitely" do just because they did things that way in the past or with other acquisitions. An eastern resort is a whole new ball-game for Vail as far as I'm concerned.

 

[deadheadskier]

Do you think Vail realizes that or cares though? I think about the crowds that I've heard of at Vail itself, their day with 50,000 skier visits or whatever it was. Is that not beyond capacity (not sure what their on hill crowding looked like)?

Well, Vail has an uphill capacity of 50K people and can spread them over 5000+ acres. Stowe has an uphill capacity of 15K people spread over 500 acres. Pretty certain busiest days of the season at Stowe top 10K. So, the skier density on the trails at Stowe on busy days is nightmarish compared to Vail. Would Vail care? Maybe. Considering there are other options like the MAXX and Mountain Collective passes they might. Speaking for myself, I'd spend more money to go MAXX pass add on if my home Northeastern mountain was still manageable than go with the Epic on the cheap and deal with a total madhouse every weekend at Stowe that price likely causes.

 

[VTKilarney]

As far as pricing is concerned, Vail is not going to run Stowe as an island. The whole point is to drive business out west. So whatever the pass price may be, I am confident that Vail will want to sell as many passes as possible in order to get as many people as possible taking a trip out west.