Vote for Utah ski bus

[deadheadskier]

Why isn't Alta and Snowbird footing the bill for the entire gondola? They're who will appreciate like 95% of the benefit.

This reminds me of sports franchises asking taxpayers to fund stadiums with the argument that it creates jobs at the local 7/11.

 

[thetrailboss]

So, let me get this straight, only Powdr is to blame for crowding up LCC? Alta and its parent have no complicity in the crowding issues as well? AFIK, they are both for profit operations and adding skiers (skiers and riders in the case of the Bird) is part of the game in increasing revenues and profits. Look TB, we all know how much you despise Powdr, especially at the Executive levels. But to just blame them for increased crowds up LCC is stretching it. Alta may not have the Tram, but they have been investing heavily in on mountain lift upgrades over the last decade or so as well.

Speaking as an Alta/Bird passholder for 11 years and someone who is up there almost weekly, I stand by my comments.

POWDR wholeheartedly jumped on the IKON wagon. The business strategy is to get more bodies up there. That's the new business model. Because Snowbird owns a part of Alta (yes, Dick Bass was invited to buy a piece of it so Alta could get some capital to improve the lifts), Alta did not have much say and had to go along with it until recently when they started implementing parking reservations and most recently elected to drop IKON Base. Alta responded because of its passholder base was furious. Snowbird has done nothing for its passholders. Since the creation of IKON, the crowding in LCC and BCC has gotten out of control. Now the HOLIDAYS and IKON blackouts are quiet when before it was the opposite.

Those are the facts. You may disagree, but that is what is happening here on the ground.

Now some other points: first, I recall, and one can easily find, DOZENS of posts on here complaining about POWDR when it took over Killington and its business decisions. I unfortunately have empathy now, but I think that people's memories can be short. Second, your tag says you ski Sunday River a lot and presumably have a pass there. Boyne is not perfect but they ARE requiring IKON passholders to make reservations at some of their busier resorts to at least give a nod to their passholders. How would you feel if Boyne just opened the floodgates to IKON passholders while increasing your pass price, delivering to you a worse experience in terms of lessons and services, shortening your season, and basically tripping over dollar bills to get the coins in between the cushions? And then asked you to foot the bill for a $500 million gondola to address their crowding problem? Yeah, I think you would not be happy either.

Last comment: now almost 90% of our business with Snowbird is gone. We've voted with our dollars. I like the terrain and the mountain too much unfortunately, but I think this is the last season for me. We're all passionate here about this sport and when things don't work out it really hurts more. That's what is behind a lot of my feelings.

 

[Smellytele]

Speaking as an Alta/Bird passholder for 11 years and someone who is up there almost weekly, I stand by my comments.

POWDR wholeheartedly jumped on the IKON wagon. The business strategy is to get more bodies up there. That's the new business model. Because Snowbird owns a part of Alta (yes, Dick Bass was invited to buy a piece of it so Alta could get some capital to improve the lifts), Alta did not have much say and had to go along with it until recently when they started implementing parking reservations and most recently elected to drop IKON Base. Alta responded because of its passholder base was furious. Snowbird has done nothing for its passholders. Since the creation of IKON, the crowding in LCC and BCC has gotten out of control. Now the HOLIDAYS and IKON blackouts are quiet when before it was the opposite.

Those are the facts. You may disagree, but that is what is happening here on the ground.

Now some other points: first, I recall, and one can easily find, DOZENS of posts on here complaining about POWDR when it took over Killington and its business decisions. I unfortunately have empathy now, but I think that people's memories can be short. Second, your tag says you ski Sunday River a lot and presumably have a pass there. Boyne is not perfect but they ARE requiring IKON passholders to make reservations at some of their busier resorts to at least give a nod to their passholders. How would you feel if Boyne just opened the floodgates to IKON passholders while increasing your pass price, delivering to you a worse experience in terms of lessons and services, shortening your season, and basically tripping over dollar bills to get the coins in between the cushions? And then asked you to foot the bill for a $500 million gondola to address their crowding problem? Yeah, I think you would not be happy either.

Last comment: now almost 90% of our business with Snowbird is gone. We've voted with our dollars. I like the terrain and the mountain too much unfortunately, but I think this is the last season for me. We're all passionate here about this sport and when things don't work out it really hurts more. That's what is behind a lot of my feelings.

In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.

 

[cdskier]

In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.

They are requiring it for Loon...but I think that is the only one.

 

[thetrailboss]

In NE Boyne is not requiring IKON passholders to make reservations.

That's what I thought regarding SR and SL. But apparently they are for Loon. So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.

And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON. It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it. In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.

 

[Smellytele]

They are requiring it for Loon...but I think that is the only one.

that is new this coming season as I didn't need to last season.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Increased bussing is great, but you still need to have parking at the bottom and limit people from going up the canyon. The Gondola makes the most sense. Sure there appears to be some shadiness with properties at the bottom, but does it really affect the environment more than a bunch of busses?

This has the potential to be a game changer that we've not typically seen in the US with accessing Ski areas. Also it could open the door for future connections to big cottonwood and over to PC. They only people really bitching about that are the BC people who don't want to share their stashes which are probably already tracked out...

Agree with every word of this. And if you believe the forward population growth estimates for SLC & environs, it's either build a gondola now or build a gondola later after the bus "solution" fails. Buses were never realistically going to cut it.

This is also the largest hurdle in connecting the Wasatch Front & Wasatch Back ski areas, something that I've long said on here would confer Utah with an unparalleled marketing advantage if OneWasatch could become a reality.

 

[NYDB]

That's what I thought regarding SR and SL. But apparently they are for Loon. So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.

And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON. It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it. In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Also Natural gas isn't that much cleaner than regular combustion engines. Don't believe the hype on "clean energy" associated with natural gas, its not that hard to find the comparison info...

If they are going to propose electric busses then fine, but I doubt that's on the table for this project.

I also don't think the government should cover the vast majority of this. the ski areas need to have a lot of skin in the game. At the same time this is a public transportation issue and if it does expand into the 2 other ski areas, then I don't have an issue with there being some public money use to develop a public transportation network. The solution for better access to SLCs ski areas exists currently all over the Alps...

 

[Smellytele]

Also Natural gas isn't that much cleaner than regular combustion engines. Don't believe the hype on "clean energy" associated with natural gas, its not that hard to find the comparison info...

If they are going to propose electric busses then fine, but I doubt that's on the table for this project.

I also don't think the government should cover the vast majority of this. the ski areas need to have a lot of skin in the game. At the same time this is a public transportation issue and if it does expand into the 2 other ski areas, then I don't have an issue with there being some public money use to develop a public transportation network. The solution for better access to SLCs ski areas exists currently all over the Alps...

1 bus is better than 15 cars going up but obviously though the bus will only have passengers in one direction each part of the day. Then parts of the day how many people will be on the bus.

 

[jimmywilson69]

If they don't restrict traffic people won't take the bus unless there is priority given to the busses. Its just the way people think. If the only option to get to Alta/Bird is the bus unless you are staying up there then the bus becomes more viable. just throwing more busses at the situation without limiting cars won't do anything for the problem.

I know for me if I was sitting in traffic and the busses keep passing me, I'm probably going to ride the bus. If the bus is stuck in the same traffic as I am then I'm definitely going to sit comfortably in my car

 

[thetrailboss]

One opinion: https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2022/09/01/building-gondola-ski-resorts-is/

What’s next for the gondola in Little Cottonwood Canyon?

Wednesday's decision from UDOT on the future of Little Cottonwood Canyon raises questions, and here's what we know about the potential gondola.

www.sltrib.com

 

[jimk]

Sounds like there is hope for the gondola, which is my preference. Only problem is I'll be 80+ by the time they build it. If I'm still alive and skiing by then, maybe I'll qualify for handicap parking next to the loading station

 

[BodeMiller1]

Why isn't Alta and Snowbird footing the bill for the entire gondola? They're who will appreciate like 95% of the benefit.

This reminds me of sports franchises asking taxpayers to fund stadiums with the argument that it creates jobs at the local 7/11.

Agree, the stadiums do create jobs, butt the taxes never come close to covering the build. Sometimes it works, for example Camden Yards in Baltimore which cleaned up the harbor, etc. Maybe all of the taxes generated, from bars, and the like came close. Then there's Yankee Stadium...

 

[machski]

that is new this coming season as I didn't need to last season.

They did require those during Covid season. They may have last year on peak days/weekends but definitely not midweek.

 

[machski]

That's what I thought regarding SR and SL. But apparently they are for Loon. So my comparison is probably fairer if someone was a Loon passholder.

And I do know that a lot of folks use IKON. It is a good value, but there are costs to that pass that are borne and folks like me bear it. In my case it is longer lines, more traffic, less parking, and an overall worse experience.

I get some of your points, but any resort that makes improvements and left upgrades is eyeing a bigger piece of skier/rider visits. Anything else said by a resort that does so is mostly contrary to R&D investments. Yes, we can point to the JHMR's as an "outlier" here, but they must be returning higher revenues even as they "limit" Ikon/MC/day ticket traffic or they would cease investing on hill (and they have most certainly not stopped that).
SR is no exception TB. We have no Ikon/ticket limits, traffic has backed up to the Walgreen's in town on some Saturday/Sundays and parking has maxed out before 10am on the main side, with only remote Jordan parking available. Thankfully, with the breadth of the resort, you can still find uncrowded lifts/trails if you know when to hit certain sections. But given the massive ongoing investments on the hill (snowmaking, while to many hasn't been obvious, is currently in the middle of a massive transformation to be fully realized next year), new Jordan 8, hopefully a new Barker next year and Merrill Hill this year, I fully expect them to be attempting to draw even more. All this said, SR while I've been skiing their since 1990 has never been "quiet" weekends and holidays so I expect that. And like you have seen, those peak times are often less crowded now than non blackout weekends.

Now, I don't think Maine DOT is looking to bypass Rte2 with a gondola from downtown Bethel up the backside to the top of Barker anytime soon. Then again, our access does not require the transit of a very narrow, potentially environmentally sensitive dead end multi mile and 4000' vertical canyon that has major avalanche issues to boot. There is valid debate on the public side of funding, especially if it will only ever just terminate in LCC. That said, this is not the only public linkage town-mountain gondola proposal worldwide (two come to mind in NZ, one from Wanaka to Cardrona and another from Queenstown to The Remarkable). We want sustainable transit options, this could be the way. Perhaps a bigger lean on the private side finding a private-public partnership would be more appropriate here.

 

[thetrailboss]

I get some of your points, but any resort that makes improvements and left upgrades is eyeing a bigger piece of skier/rider visits. Anything else said by a resort that does so is mostly contrary to R&D investments. Yes, we can point to the JHMR's as an "outlier" here, but they must be returning higher revenues even as they "limit" Ikon/MC/day ticket traffic or they would cease investing on hill (and they have most certainly not stopped that).
SR is no exception TB. We have no Ikon/ticket limits, traffic has backed up to the Walgreen's in town on some Saturday/Sundays and parking has maxed out before 10am on the main side, with only remote Jordan parking available. Thankfully, with the breadth of the resort, you can still find uncrowded lifts/trails if you know when to hit certain sections. But given the massive ongoing investments on the hill (snowmaking, while to many hasn't been obvious, is currently in the middle of a massive transformation to be fully realized next year), new Jordan 8, hopefully a new Barker next year and Merrill Hill this year, I fully expect them to be attempting to draw even more. All this said, SR while I've been skiing their since 1990 has never been "quiet" weekends and holidays so I expect that. And like you have seen, those peak times are often less crowded now than non blackout weekends.

True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements. Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside. Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped). But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding. And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there. John doesn't get that (or want to get it).

 

[machski]

True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements. Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside. Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped). But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding. And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there. John doesn't get that (or want to get it).

Or perhaps he gets that and sees the Canyon bottleneck as a reason they have slowed/delayed improvements. Based on the current situation, perhaps they don't see the necessary (in their eyes) ROI without a transportation improvement. Perhaps not coincidentally, Utah is promoting itself currently for a future winter Olympics, no? Hmmmm.....

 

[thetrailboss]

Or perhaps he gets that and sees the Canyon bottleneck as a reason they have slowed/delayed improvements. Based on the current situation, perhaps they don't see the necessary (in their eyes) ROI without a transportation improvement. Perhaps not coincidentally, Utah is promoting itself currently for a future winter Olympics, no? Hmmmm.....

That is very true. But it also demonstrates that adopting a growth business model that relies on high volume just does not work in this geographic area. And if it was it would require a $500+ mill gondola that is not guaranteed to fix the issue. The location is a blessing (snow, good vert, close to population center) and a curse (avalanche, narrow box canyon, no space for development).

Remember we are talking about the guy who will forever be known as the guy "who could not sign a lease renewal" in business and law textbooks. I think that inferiority complex is driving him to make more dumb decisions.

As to the gondola, it is now in the legislature's hands. And Mormon Jesus has not yet spoken as to if he approves.

 

[tumbler]

True, but one other point is that Snowbird is not investing in any significant improvements. Daddy Cumming built the Summit Lodge and funded some renovations and the minor expansion of Creekside. Sure, Junior bought two new tram cabins (one that was dropped). But that is not significant enough to offset the inconvenience created by overcrowding. And, honestly, anyone taking an objective look at Alta and Snowbird would quickly realize that access is a HUGE issue and naturally limits the number of people up there. John doesn't get that (or want to get it).

I think you need to move