What area has the best layout for early season?

[Puck it]

Cannon does have a bigger lodge at the top (albeit a lot of wasted space because of the tram IIRC) but SB North is deceiving because there is a significant amount of terrain available off the top. The last time I skied there for early season turns, they had enough snow to open everything from Glen House up. When you consider that Way Back is open, that gives you Black Diamond, FIS, Panorama, Rim Run (Upper and Lower), Lookin Good (both), Elbow and Lower Elbow, Bravo, Exterminator, and maybe some glades. That must be pretty close to the amount that Cannon would have open with Cannonball Express going.

How many trails and what would the vert be?

Cannon could have 7 trails and about ~800' vertical(can not find the exact stat).

 

[thetrailboss]

How many trails and what would the vert be?

Cannon could have 7 trails and about ~800' vertical(can not find the exact stat).

1,141 vertical.
12 trails or so.
2 glades.

Routes for experts, low intermediates, and high intermediates.

Honestly though I think having Cannon open for early season, as proposed, with its location and all assets described is a no-brainer and would really help strengthen its reputation as a "go-to" place for snow and a long season. It also would bolster its reputation as a serious skier's mountain because they can serve the goods when the demand is high. FWIW the management has been very aggressive with marketing, rebranding, and investing in the mountain. They have done a better job with grooming and snowmaking. If the right person saw this thread, I think that they might roll the dice on this idea.

 

[Puck it]

1,141 vertical.
12 trails or so.
2 glades.

Routes for experts, low intermediates, and high intermediates.

Honestly though I think having Cannon open for early season, as proposed, with its location and all assets described is a no-brainer and would really help strengthen its reputation as a "go-to" place for snow and a long season. It also would bolster its reputation as a serious skier's mountain because they can serve the goods when the demand is high. FWIW the management has been very aggressive with marketing, rebranding, and investing in the mountain. They have done a better job with grooming and snowmaking. If the right person saw this thread, I think that they might roll the dice on this idea.

So true, but state owned and managned. If it were leased it may happen though. Vertical may be more than 800 BTW.

 

[thetrailboss]

So true, but state owned and managned. If it were leased it may happen though. Vertical may be more than 800 BTW.

Yes, the state owned and managed piece does hinder things. But it appears that the money from the Sunapee lease is being put to use and that the Mittersill expansion is going ahead (new lift and other work). So someone in the state government sees this as a valuable asset. I wonder how much discretion management has with regards to budget and operations?

 

[Geoff]

I don't think you guys have a very good grasp on the business.

For reliable October skiing that is cost effective, you need:
* One download capable lift with a midstation
* Northern exposure
* One or two intermediate trails that go from the top to the midstation
* Enough altitude to get the temperature drop to be able to make snow
* Geographical proximity to the large metro areas to create the critical mass of customers to offset the expense of making snow that will likely melt

Sunday River comes closest to meeting the criteria. It has an issue with elevation and proximity to metro areas. When ASC removed the old Killington double chair with the midstation, Killington stopped being viable. You really have to be able to do it with one lift for the economics to make sense.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think you guys have a very good grasp on the business.

For reliable October skiing that is cost effective, you need:
* One download capable lift with a midstation
* Northern exposure
* One or two intermediate trails that go from the top to the midstation
* Enough altitude to get the temperature drop to be able to make snow
* Geographical proximity to the large metro areas to create the critical mass of customers to offset the expense of making snow that will likely melt

Sunday River comes closest to meeting the criteria. It has an issue with elevation and proximity to metro areas. When ASC removed the old Killington double chair with the midstation, Killington stopped being viable. You really have to be able to do it with one lift for the economics to make sense.

I could see that the Tram and Cannonball lift would cost more than one lift with a mid-station.

Cannon does face North

Has the intermediate trails

Much higher in altitude than Sunday River

Much closer to Boston

outside of the added lift expense, Cannon has a much better set up than SR for early season IMO

 

[Geoff]

I could see that the Tram and Cannonball lift would cost more than one lift with a mid-station.

Cannon does face North

Has the intermediate trails

Much higher in altitude than Sunday River

Much closer to Boston

outside of the added lift expense, Cannon has a much better set up than SR for early season IMO

You really have to be able to do it with one lift. Otherwise, you operate at a loss midweek unless you can tap the New York metro market. Boston just isn't big enough.

The other thing I failed to list earlier: Near-infinite water supply. Sunday River has it. I thought Cannon had a very limited snowmaking water supply? It's also the big problem elsewhere. You don't want to screw up your main season snowmaking ops by using up your water for October snowmaking.

 

[threecy]

In addition to the tramway being expensive to operate off-peak (though in theory one could set up the HSQ for downloading), another factor not mentioned yet is wind. In my experience on Cannon in late fall and early winter, usually late in the day, it's mighty windy up there. As a result, even if temperatures allow, minimal-window snowmaking may not be feasible.

 

[Puck it]

You really have to be able to do it with one lift. Otherwise, you operate at a loss midweek unless you can tap the New York metro market. Boston just isn't big enough.

The other thing I failed to list earlier: Near-infinite water supply. Sunday River has it. I thought Cannon had a very limited snowmaking water supply? It's also the big problem elsewhere. You don't want to screw up your main season snowmaking ops by using up your water for October snowmaking.

Echo Lake right there which gathers all of the tun off from the notch. Sunday River attracts people from Bostonarea to go. Cannon is much closer then SR.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't think you guys have a very good grasp on the business.

For reliable October skiing that is cost effective, you need:
* One download capable lift with a midstation
* Northern exposure
* One or two intermediate trails that go from the top to the midstation
* Enough altitude to get the temperature drop to be able to make snow
* Geographical proximity to the large metro areas to create the critical mass of customers to offset the expense of making snow that will likely melt

Sunday River comes closest to meeting the criteria. It has an issue with elevation and proximity to metro areas. When ASC removed the old Killington double chair with the midstation, Killington stopped being viable. You really have to be able to do it with one lift for the economics to make sense.

You really have to be able to do it with one lift. Otherwise, you operate at a loss midweek unless you can tap the New York metro market. Boston just isn't big enough.

The other thing I failed to list earlier: Near-infinite water supply. Sunday River has it. I thought Cannon had a very limited snowmaking water supply? It's also the big problem elsewhere. You don't want to screw up your main season snowmaking ops by using up your water for October snowmaking.

IIRC Killington used to operate both the Killington Double and the Glades Triple so I don't know where you are getting the idea that you need to have one lift. All of the resorts that do early season skiing via downloading rely on two lifts, otherwise you have to load and unload at the midstation and that does not work so well. Back in the day, WV, SB, and Killington used two lifts--one for access and one for people to ski off of. SB still does if it has to.

As to water, Cannon has Echo Lake at the bottom as mentioned before.

 

[Puck it]

In addition to the tramway being expensive to operate off-peak (though in theory one could set up the HSQ for downloading), another factor not mentioned yet is wind. In my experience on Cannon in late fall and early winter, usually late in the day, it's mighty windy up there. As a result, even if temperatures allow, minimal-window snowmaking may not be feasible.

No windy then an other time of the year in my experience.

 

[Vortex]

Well in the recent past Sr is the only one to show they can do it and have actually done something about it..

I agree with geoff here.

K is still the best place to do it, but the lift structure will have to change. My guess is it will.

I still think Waterville would work too, Becasue its such a short area that they would have to make snow on.it. High country lift sucks, but its cold enough to hold snow, and 3 marginal snow making nights can get it open.

 

[drjeff]

IIRC Killington used to operate both the Killington Double and the Glades Triple so I don't know where you are getting the idea that you need to have one lift. All of the resorts that do early season skiing via downloading rely on two lifts, otherwise you have to load and unload at the midstation and that does not work so well. Back in the day, WV, SB, and Killington used two lifts--one for access and one for people to ski off of. SB still does if it has to.

As to water, Cannon has Echo Lake at the bottom as mentioned before.

Back in the day, Killington used to just open with the old K double from the mid-station straight to the top via Cascade. Glades was the 1st place they went when the EXPANDED new open terrain areas.

But opening day was alway 1 trail/1 lift.

Just since anyone hasn't added it into the mix, and many times they've shown they'll open close to as early as anyone in the Northeast, got to put little 'ol Woodbury, CT into the mix :lol:

 

[Puck it]

That is not skiing. That is a jib park at best. Vertical counts.

 

[2knees]

As Dr.Jeff already said, k operated on the k double only. ride it up all the way, ski down to midstation, load, and download from the top when you were done.

 

[Geoff]

Back in the day, Killington used to just open with the old K double from the mid-station straight to the top via Cascade. Glades was the 1st place they went when the EXPANDED new open terrain areas.

But opening day was alway 1 trail/1 lift.

I deleted the Woodbury comment as a public service.

Yeah, Killington always did October on upper Cascade. 1 lift, 1 trail. If you have to blow a whole network of connecting trails and run extra lifts, that totally ruins the economics since you know it's going to melt out.

October skiing probably was never profitable at Killington. It was a marketing tool to promote season pass sales and midwinter dayticket sales. If the whole world knows you're open from October until June, they're not going to hesitate to book lodging midwinter since they know for sure that you'll be open. I believe there is a correlation between the recent collapse in skier visits at Killington and POWDR showing up and shortening the season dramatically. For season pass holders, it kills the value proposition when Sunday River is the only resort standing on Thanksgiving weekend. if you're sitting on a jillion acres of land where you want to erect condos, I'd think you would want to be doing whatever you can to bring back the value proposition.


Cannon doesn't have a mega-resort to market. Sunday River does. That's why Sunday River blows snow in October and Cannon doesn't.

 

[riverc0il]

The other thing I failed to list earlier: Near-infinite water supply. Sunday River has it. I thought Cannon had a very limited snowmaking water supply?

Cannon probably has one of the biggest lakes right at its base outside of Sunapee. They got the water... it is more about the money.

Mid-station is not needed for personnel reasons. A mid-station doubles the personnel needed to run the lift. One person at the base, one at the summit, and two at mid-station. Same as running two lifts. Cannon is closer to Boston, RI, and CT than SR though doubtful it would draw many NYers. Doesn't make money mid-week?

Just open during the weekend. It is more about the snow making money and blowing snow that will melt than anything else. Cannon just does not need the marketing, exposure, or pass sales like a big resort such as River or a big multi-area ticket like Boyne. NH tax payers would have a fit if Cannon blew in October... lots of folks already want the place leased out (though it has been profitable recently as I understand).

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Back in the day, Killington used to just open with the old K double from the mid-station straight to the top via Cascade. Glades was the 1st place they went when the EXPANDED new open terrain areas.

But opening day was alway 1 trail/1 lift.

Just since anyone hasn't added it into the mix, and many times they've shown they'll open close to as early as anyone in the Northeast, got to put little 'ol Woodbury, CT into the mix :lol:

Depends on when "back in the day" was....:wink: When I was a kid the parents drove us over to kmart on Halloween weekend and the only thing open was Snowshed and I guess it was a double chair. I remember a couple of skinny trails skier left and the big slope skier right. I guess that was circa 1961. Did that until we were old enough to go on the local school bus trips to North Creek Ski Bowl every Sat.

 

[drjeff]

Depends on when "back in the day" was....:wink: When I was a kid the parents drove us over to kmart on Halloween weekend and the only thing open was Snowshed and I guess it was a double chair. I remember a couple of skinny trails skier left and the big slope skier right. I guess that was circa 1961. Did that until we were old enough to go on the local school bus trips to North Creek Ski Bowl every Sat.

They actually had lifts back then SRO???? :lol: :lol:

I know that snowmaking wasn't an issue then, since we were still in the last ice age

 

[SIKSKIER]

Not even close

Hands down Cannon has the best set-up,but as I know all too well they are reluctant to do it.Cannon did do it about 15 years or so ago.I have the early season ticket somewhere.Earliest opening in their history of October 31.They ran just what has been posted.The tram to up/download.The extra cost was minimal with only running the tram once every 1/2 hour.It really did work great.They also did it in reverse the following year with their latest closing the first of May.I have that ticket somewhere too.Not sure what Geoff is talking about.Cannon has probably the best water supply in the east.Echo lake can't get any closer to the trails and it is spring fed.It's an unlimited supply.In35 years I've never seen the level change even 1 foot.

I got to disagree with Bob about Wallyworld.That terrain on High Country is worthless.What diehard skier,which is who would be skiing early season,would want to ski a beginner area?
Sunday River?What?All the peaks for the most part are top to bottom lifts and where they are not,there is only a couple hundred vertical below.The elevation is at least a thousand feet lower than other contenders.