What Expansions are left

[xlr8r]

The talk in the Sugarbush thread of expanding above Inverness got me thinking about expansions in general. Besides Hunter North there really have not been any significant expansions in the Northeast in the last decade. Realistically what terrain expansions are left that will happen or are likely to happen. the ones I can think of are:

Belleayre - Highmount
Killington/Pico - Interconnect
Sugarloaf - Burnt Mountain surface lift
Sunday River - 9th Peak near North Peak/South Ridge for real estate
Loon - South Peak Beginner Area

What else is likely to happen

 

[danimals]

A few I recall off the top of my head

-Sunapee
-Jay (west bowl? I forget the name)
-Whiteface and gore have a couple more in master plan



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[raisingarizona]

If climate scientists are right then there isn’t much of a reason to expand eastern ski areas anymore.

 

[xlr8r]

If climate scientists are right then there isn’t much of a reason to expand eastern ski areas anymore.

Thats kind of my point with this thread. We are at the end yet some ski areas are more crowded than ever with these multi mtn passes

 

[raisingarizona]

Thats kind of my point with this thread. We are at the end yet some ski areas are more crowded than ever with these multi mtn passes

I wonder, on average how many weeks a season do the major eastern ski areas have 80% or more of their terrain open? At some point it’s no longer going to make sense to maintain and operate a big chunk of their acreage.

 

[raisingarizona]

One thing I think might happen is that people are going to get sick of the crowding at places like mount snow and people might start to discover the more under the radar mid sized places like mount Abraham etc. it could produce more income for those smaller areas. I can’t beli people willingly walk right into expensive experiences where they know it’s going to be crowded af.

 

[mbedle]

Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to turn the smaller underutilized places into mini Mount Snows...

 

[deadheadskier]

Black Cap at Cranmore

West side at Shawnee Peak Maine

No talk of either in recent years though

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[Newpylong]

Pinnacle at Ragged. Stalled for a while no end in sight.

 

[urungus]

Berkshire East https://www.telegram.com/article/20160113/SPORTS/160119614

 

[BenedictGomez]

If climate scientists are right then there isn’t much of a reason to expand eastern ski areas anymore.

This is so ridiculous.

And I dont want to bring 'politics' into it, so I'll just point out that even if you do believe in Global Warming 100% hook, line, and sinker, the "negative change" in 100 years from now as predicted by IPCC research & working papers isn't enough to kill eastern skiing, much less make a 2020 investment non-feasible economically in 10 or 20 years from now.

SHORT VERSION: It's absurd how illogically "scared" the media has made people. It's like Y2K fear, but long-term. But if you're going to harbor fear, it makes sense to actually understand the "negative change" predictions. Also would be good to research how the 1990, 2000, 2010, etc. "negative change" predictions have panned out so far.....,cause it aint great, but I'll stop there.

 

[raisingarizona]

This is so ridiculous.

And I dont want to bring 'politics' into it, so I'll just point out that even if you do believe in Global Warming 100% hook, line, and sinker, the "negative change" in 100 years from now as predicted by IPCC research & working papers isn't enough to kill eastern skiing, much less make a 2020 investment non-feasible economically in 10 or 20 years from now.

SHORT VERSION: It's absurd how illogically "scared" the media has made people. It's like Y2K fear, but long-term. But if you're going to harbor fear, it makes sense to actually understand the "negative change" predictions. Also would be good to research how the 1990, 2000, 2010, etc. "negative change" predictions have panned out so far.....,cause it aint great, but I'll stop there.

“If” is what I wrote there guy. Things are changing right now, that’s very apparent out here in the west whether you want to believe it or not. I can’t say how correct the science is or the predictions but something is happening, what exactly is hard saying. If it gets a few degrees warmer it won’t be good for skiing, especially in the volitile east and south west and ski areas will eventually be forced to rethink their operating procedures.

I definitely question all forms of media and their motives but real scientists agree on the current outlooks and I’ve gathered this opinion from colleagues, friends and associates that work in the field not television.

 

[mister moose]

This is so ridiculous...

SHORT VERSION: It's absurd how illogically "scared" the media has made people. It's like Y2K fear, but long-term. But if you're going to harbor fear, it makes sense to actually understand the "negative change" predictions. Also would be good to research how the 1990, 2000, 2010, etc. "negative change" predictions have panned out so far.....,cause it aint great, but I'll stop there.

It would also be good to look into past weather in New England.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]♦ [/FONT]Snowmaking was invented here in New England in the late 50's because the snow was so undependable. In the 50's. Way before any man made climate change was speculated to have occurred.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]♦ [/FONT]Freezing rain and icing events have been a fixture, not a recent development.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]♦ [/FONT]The phrase "January Thaw" is how old?

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]♦ [/FONT]Ski seasons used to be from Christmas to Easter. Pre climate change.

 

[skicub]

Sunday River supposedly has a lot more room to expand, right? Wasn’t that Les Otten’s doing/undoing? I know that it has been rumored to be the case that they can keep building out from Jordan on west, but I don’t know the specifics.

Also, if it ever happened (likely won’t), the Balsams?

Finally, sugarloaf could choose to fill in some of Brackett / Burnt with lift / surface lift infrastructure?


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[Smellytele]

One thing I think might happen is that people are going to get sick of the crowding at places like mount snow and people might start to discover the more under the radar mid sized places like mount Abraham etc. it could produce more income for those smaller areas. I can’t beli people willingly walk right into expensive experiences where they know it’s going to be crowded af.

A crowd attracts a crowd. "It must be good look at all the people there". Sheep mentality.

 

[gregnye]

Other expansions include:
Waterville (village gondola/Green Peak phase 2)
Sunapee (West Bowl)
Loon South Peak Beginner area

I just don't understand the point of expanding larger ski areas. Like it takes Killington until January to get Bear Peak open. If there was an interconnect to Pico it still wouldn't be open most of the year. It's not like out west where it snows all at once and you can go right to 100%. Most of the time it's a steady march of snowmaking to get to 100%

Really, I think the IKON and EPIC passes are just redistributing skiers to different mountains, not increasing the total number of skiers. Let's use the NH example: On a weekend, Loon is absolutely insane (IKON Pass), while Cannon is quiet, and Gunstock and Ragged, Tenney and all those southern NH resorts are forgotten.

BTW, I doubt those Southern NH resorts are going to be around much longer. It rarely snows south of Concord NH anymore. And if it does it melts out in 1 or 2 days.

 

[EPB]

Other expansions include:
Waterville (village gondola/Green Peak phase 2)
Sunapee (West Bowl)
Loon South Peak Beginner area

I just don't understand the point of expanding larger ski areas. Like it takes Killington until January to get Bear Peak open. If there was an interconnect to Pico it still wouldn't be open most of the year. It's not like out west where it snows all at once and you can go right to 100%. Most of the time it's a steady march of snowmaking to get to 100%

Really, I think the IKON and EPIC passes are just redistributing skiers to different mountains, not increasing the total number of skiers. Let's use the NH example: On a weekend, Loon is absolutely insane (IKON Pass), while Cannon is quiet, and Gunstock and Ragged, Tenney and all those southern NH resorts are forgotten.

BTW, I doubt those Southern NH resorts are going to be around much longer. It rarely snows south of Concord NH anymore. And if it does it melts out in 1 or 2 days.

I know I'm just a younger millennial, but I am old enough to remember Boston setting an all time snowfall record just five seasons ago. That's not to say I'm convinced there's no warming, but let's not be ridiculous.

As BG alluded earlier, the ski industry clearly doesn't believe in the type of catastrophic global warning that some here do. If they did, they'd divest themselves of their resorts while they can.

If Epic and Ikon last another 10+ years, they will kill independent places in the Northeast. Global warming won't.

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[gregnye]

.
As BG alluded earlier, the ski industry clearly doesn't believe in the type of catastrophic global warning that some here do. If they did, they'd divest themselves of their resorts while they can.

I would argue that they are already divesting. These multi-resort passes and higher walk-up day tickets force skiers to purchase early. So rather than income based on how good the eastern season is, Vail gets guaranteed income every year in the form of season passes.

The eastern resorts don't matter. Vail knows that the coastal temperatures are the first to fluctuate and that the east coast skiing conditions will suffer. The hope is that passholders will just fly west, where skiing will still exist at higher elevations.

Overall I really don't see a point in East Coast ski area expansions. Now expansions out in Colorado or Utah I could get behind.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah, that ain't happening for a LONG time. And no Vail is likely not thinking about that much at all.

It snows no more and no less in Southern NH than it has for the past fifty years at least. They keep records of this stuff you know? So, I'm not sure I understand where your "it hardly snows South of Concord" belief comes from. I live ten miles inland from the NH coast. I've had a consistent snowpack in my yard since December 1st.

Yes, the climate is warming, but it's barely noticeable around here.



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[jimk]

BTW, I doubt those Southern NH resorts are going to be around much longer. It rarely snows south of Concord NH anymore. And if it does it melts out in 1 or 2 days.

We're off to a very weak start here in the mid-Atlantic in 2020, but typical ski conditions and length of ski seasons are as good or better now than ever in my 50+ years of skiing down here. That's due to improved snowmaking and grooming practices, which generally are able to compensate for volatility of weather.