Who wants to move to Salt Lake?

[parahelia]

However, I think the main reason for picking a private school is that they make graduation much more likely. Let's compare BC and UMass, which I would think of as having similar prestige and academics. BC's graduation rate is 92%, while UMass is currently 76%.* (I googled a bunch of similar schools, UMass is on the high end for NE public schools and BC's rate isn't dissimilar to similar private schools.) To my mind this is huge: most of my family or friends from way-back who didn't graduate have stayed in lower income jobs. I'd note that I know plenty who have graduated and aren't earning all that well, but that's often more of a lifestyle choice than a lack of opportunity (at least initially).

It's true that elite private institutions have higher graduation rates than many publics, but the correlation doesn't prove causation. The overall student body at BC is quite different from that at UMASS. While there are obviously exceptions, the students at BC tend to be wealthier, with a lot more family resources that can help them graduate. The resources may be both financial (able to pay the high tuition prices, able to pay for mental health care, etc.) as well as social (family expectation to complete, assistance in navigating the higher ed. system, etc.) These extra resources can help keep students in school through graduation.

I speak from experience - I've been teaching at a public 4-year institution for 15 years. I'm not at one of the flagship universities; I'm in the "state U" tier (offers much better work-life balance). We have a four-year graduation rate just above 50%. Some (not all) of my students lack the financial or social resources to help support their on-time graduation. Some are paying for their tuition out of pocket, working 30 hours a week, making it difficult to succeed academically. Some are responsible for supporting their family, either financially, with child care, or with elder care. If they're the first in their family to go to college, the bureaucracy (especially around financial aid) can be overwhelming, and leads some to leave w/o graduation. One of my advisees was in that situation; her second-year financial aid package was in peril and her parents were immigrants struggling with the huge amount of paperwork. I went to the fin aid office with my student, we went over what was and was not needed, and got things straightened out. She graduated this year, the first in her family - there's no better feeling for an advisor.

So yes - graduation rates are important (and they also reflect on-campus resources, which I'm sure BC has more of) - but a lot of factors feed into them.

To my mind why pick a public school? (1) great education at a much more affordable cost, (2) a more varied student body (in terms of economic class and parental backgrounds), (3) lot's of individually excellent professors and less snobbery. (4) they feel bigger and full of opportunity.

I totally agree - public higher ed is a great choice, and often overlooked by high school students wowed by flashy brochures (and less aware of the long-term financial consequences). My 15 years teaching at State U have given me nothing but respect for the role these institutions play in making higher ed accessible to the vast majority of citizens who want it. Sure, some students just try to coast by in easy classes and get their degrees - that happens anywhere. But I have also had so many fantastic, creative, hard-working students. Like with so many things, you get out of it what you put in. The ones who seek out their professors and try to go further are rewarded; I have had dozens of students do field work and independent research with me over the years. And in my general education classes, I've had many many students describe their choice of State U as a strategic one - they wanted to graduate without debt, either so they could go on to graduate school or just have that financial head start.

 

[BodeMiller1]

"I went to Law School because I knew I'd be a great Lawyer"

Here' s dime to call your mom and tell her you will not.

On the food net work many of the hippster dives are owned by people w/ law degrees...

"I found my calling in the food industry"

NO, you couldn't monetize the power of the degree

F is off today, buy in. See, what I'm doing here is assuming society will be pulled back from dogs. I admit, this is a thing.

I'm sticking with balls to the walls buy.

 

[MadPadraic]

BC admits around 20% of their applicants, UMass around 60%. The average SAT of a BC undergrad is hundreds of points higher than the UMass student. You should be comparing BC to Michigan or UVA if you want to see how graduation rates compare between similar public and private universities.

Fair enough. I was trying to pick two schools where I had some familiarity of the social dynamics due to having a lot of friends at both during my formative years. This thread could quickly descend into arguments around school prestige, so I'll leave it here and suggest that people do their own checking by googling graduation rates at schools which they feel are well matched. Sorry if you felt I was harsh on BC--I do think highly of it.

 

[MadPadraic]

It's true that elite private institutions have higher graduation rates than many publics, but the correlation doesn't prove causation. The overall student body at BC is quite different from that at UMASS. While there are obviously exceptions, the students at BC tend to be wealthier, with a lot more family resources that can help them graduate. The resources may be both financial (able to pay the high tuition prices, able to pay for mental health care, etc.) as well as social (family expectation to complete, assistance in navigating the higher ed. system, etc.) These extra resources can help keep students in school through graduation.

I speak from experience - I've been teaching at a public 4-year institution for 15 years. I'm not at one of the flagship universities; I'm in the "state U" tier (offers much better work-life balance). We have a four-year graduation rate just above 50%. Some (not all) of my students lack the financial or social resources to help support their on-time graduation. Some are paying for their tuition out of pocket, working 30 hours a week, making it difficult to succeed academically. Some are responsible for supporting their family, either financially, with child care, or with elder care. If they're the first in their family to go to college, the bureaucracy (especially around financial aid) can be overwhelming, and leads some to leave w/o graduation. One of my advisees was in that situation; her second-year financial aid package was in peril and her parents were immigrants struggling with the huge amount of paperwork. I went to the fin aid office with my student, we went over what was and was not needed, and got things straightened out. She graduated this year, the first in her family - there's no better feeling for an advisor.

So yes - graduation rates are important (and they also reflect on-campus resources, which I'm sure BC has more of) - but a lot of factors feed into them.

[ Emphasis added[

I mostly agree with the above. What I'm suggesting is that well run private schools facilitate higher graduation rates by doing more to support students and by creating an environment where graduation is the expectation rather optional which is enforced by peer pressure if not familiar pressure.

Also---going back to the threads earlier debate around debt forgiveness and "18 year olds are old enough to know better" type arguments. Many teenagers (especially first generation college students) aren't told things like "choice of major matters for your future earnings," "internships matter," etc etc. They are often told that a college degree will pay, but not given proper guidance on how to facilitate it. A lifetime of debt for decisions made with bad information seems incredibly harsh to me. My spouse and I alternated putting each other through school: she worked when I went back to finish undergrad, and then I worked while she was in grad school. We took on debt for all of our undergraduate and graduate studies. We paid it off last year(ish) and wouldn't benefit at all from debt forgiveness. While it is annoying that we would just miss out, I really don't begrudge it to anyone. (At least undergrad, I have more ambivalent feelings about Grad/Professional school debt).

 

[drjeff]

BC admits around 20% of their applicants, UMass around 60%. The average SAT of a BC undergrad is hundreds of points higher than the UMass student. You should be comparing BC to Michigan or UVA if you want to see how graduation rates compare between similar public and private universities.

Actually, per what my daughter, who just went through the college application process the last few months, and was initially wait listed at BC (subsequently was accepted, but declined and is going to Holy Cross instead in the Fall) told me, is that this past year, the acceptance rate at BC was right around 10%, and apparently this year, most colleges saw a decrease in their acceptance rates (and increase in applicants) mainly due to some of the college aged students who chose to say attend a community college or do other things during the previous year when COVID had most schools in some form of virtual learning are now looking to get into/back to an on campus situation, that often wasn't available for the previous year. So basically you have the incoming Freshman class this Fall (Class of 2026) who were competing with members of what would be the Class of 2025, but because of COVID may have never applied to the actual college they wanted to a year ago due to the COVID in person restrictions.

If I recall the Holy Cross numbers my daughter told me, she is part of their largest class ever (over 900 students) where they typically look to matriculate between 700 and 750 per class, and at orientation a few weeks ago, she was told that much of the increase in class size is due to students who applied who would of traditionally be rising Sophmores now, but chose not to apply a year ago because of COVID

 

[BodeMiller1]

I used to study at Holy Cross, they have a great library. I go through that neck of the woods to get to a "store" a little west. The neighborhood across the tracks is rundown and the people down and out. Worcester is a better bang for the buck than Boston and you're close to the mountains (as you all know).

Sometimes when I take on-line classes I wonder. How does the school know it's me????

I want to go to law school, butt nope, too late. Thinking about a Masters of Science in Accounting at Plymouth State. Which is in the dead middle of ski country.

Anyone out there know of how the Killington School of Ski Management (if that's what it's called) is. Looked at the cost and it's up there.



"The Medium is the message" - Andy W.