Belleayre Petition

[catskills]

cool... but they do give a lot of stuff away...

DMC - I looked at some of the discounts tickets this year. I don't think Belleayre is that much different than many of the other mountains. Looking at the Potter Brother Flex tickets, Belleayre tickets are inline with other Mountains. Belleayre has a week in January Mon-Fri where tickets are $20. but Hunter has the Big Lift Card where almost every Mon-Fri tickets are $27.50, which is an awesome deal BTW you get a free lift ticket before Nov 1. Hunter also has the New 3x Card for $99 or $33 per day. Belleayre's skier appreciation days are $25 Fridays once a month which actually a great idea because you may get NJ, PA, and MD folks to stop by a few hours to experience skiing in the Catskills on their way up to Vermont. The only give away is ski free on your Birthday at Belleayre. DMC I don't see where Belleayre is that much different than the other mountains.

I never said it was because Belleayre is run by the state.. I'm saying the very fact it is run by the state helps it out by decreasing operating costs like insurance..

I will give you that one. Tell your US Senator and Congressmen that you want free health care and that will even that one out a bit. :flag:

So I don't know why they can't come up with the cash to improve.. People go there... Winter and summer.. Whats going on with the $?

This is actually a very good question. My understanding is that all of Belleayre's money from tickets sales or any other revenue income like Weddings etc., that revenue income goes immediately back to NY State. Belleayre is given an annual budget by NY State for expenses. All income goes back to NY State. Belleayre ticket sales will sometimes help NY State pay the bills, in a small amount, in lean years like we are in now. Every year Belleayre has to beg for money back to cover next years expenses and those improvements you mentioned. Belleayre is NY State and NY State is Belleayre.

Belleayre is very different from ORDA, which just built a new lodge at Gore this year with tax payer money. ORDA got the new lodge check and cashed it before the NY state economy imploded. Belleayre has the same bank account as NY State's bank account. Hence Belleayre's new lodge got postponed. Gore gets half their skier visits from the Hudson Valley and points south of the Hudson Valley. Reference Gore UMP. Personally I think the Catskills resorts should be working together to get back all those skier/rider visits that drive past the Catskills to GORE, WF, and Vermont. All this fighting between the Catskill resorts is counter productive IMHO. In the mean time there are a lot of skiers driving right past the Catskills to go north. :argue:

 

[evantrentful]

Alright so this thread was probably unnecessary given the feelings on this topic but given the comparison to Whiteface/Gore I have to show some support for Belleayre on the budget issues.
Alittle backround so people dont jump down my throat. 7 years ago I learned to ski at Whiteface in my freshmen year of college. I consider that mountain half the reason I fell I love with skiing. You can find my few posts on here typically making some happy comment about whiteface. I also lurk heavily on SkiAdk. Whiteface is the closest thing that I have to what I consider a 'home mountain', I was there for 4 1/2 years 3-5 times a week. Ive been to Gore about a dozen times, mostly last season when I couldnt get to whiteface, and its a great area to. for the last 3 seasons Ive lived downstate in orange county so I ski the catskills 3-4 days midweek most of the time now .

My issue is people bringing up this infamous "April snowmaking'. It happened what maybe not even a handful of times? And like has been stated Belleayre doesn't even remotely have similar snowmaking capacity as Hunter or Windham, or even Whiteface and Gore. Even on the best snowmaking days, you wouldn't see 40% the guns on the mountain running. So during the season (not even counting last year) they blow alot less snow than most mountains do during a said period of time. So you know what let them blow alittle snow in April, if only for the PR. If it lets them fill in some patches and extend their season alittle bit more to brag about last closing date, what do we care? They have nothing else going for them to advertise. Hunter and Windham have condos/hotels to suck money from, to create packages. Whiteface has Lake Placid to create its 'destination' and sheer size to draw people. Gore has been Orda's golden child as of late, and with the continued expansion I wouldn't be surprised if ultimately Gore turns into a state run resort with hotels/etc in North Creek.

So if they can say "hey we try to open early, close late, get a pass here", can you really blame them?. Like those who argue for Whiteface/Gore about ticket prices, all Belleayre has to generate revenue is a lift ticket and food sales. So they give away some comp stuff? What is the chance alot of those people who got it would have never come other wise . So they came, they got there and maybe purchased some food, money made that wouldnt have been there. Who knows maybe they will come back.

I dont know what else they can do to cut costs more and still have a place that people would actually want to come to. Last season they closed and reopen trails throughout the day, while they groomed them so they wouldn't run a night shift. Belleayres lodges are antique even compared to the Gore/Whiteface Lodges, and as stated before their snowmaking capability esp compared to some mountains is like a flurry next to a blizzard.

I too would once and for all like to see the financials for Belleayre

 

[catskills]

Hey evantrentful, awesome post. Very fair with a lot of insight. Please post here more often.

 

[x10003q]

. .

Belleayre is very different from ORDA, which just built a new lodge at Gore this year with tax payer money. ORDA got the new lodge check and cashed it before the NY state economy imploded. Belleayre has the same bank account as NY State's bank account. Hence Belleayre's new lodge got postponed. Gore gets half their skier visits from the Hudson Valley and points south of the Hudson Valley. Reference Gore UMP. Personally I think the Catskills resorts should be working together to get back all those skier/rider visits that drive past the Catskills to GORE, WF, and Vermont. All this fighting between the Catskill resorts is counter productive IMHO. In the mean time there are a lot of skiers driving right past the Catskills to go north. :argue:

There is a lot of wrong information about Gore in your paragraph. The "new lodge" at Gore is a knock-down and rebuild of an existing warming hut on North Creek town property in the Ski Bowl area. It mostly operates for the tubing and the small 150 vertical triple that has night skiing. The money to do this is coming from an $800,000. grant that the Town of Johnsburg recieved from the Federal government.
" The town of Johnsburg has already secured about $800,000 in federal funding to renovate a ski hut on the Ski Bowl property and has also applied for a $520,000 grant from the state Office of Small Cities to build a triple-chair lift."
http://www.adirondack-goremountain.com/Plan_Linked_To_Ski_Area.htm
Gore gets 3% of its skiers from the Hudson Valley and 33% from NJ, NYC, and LI. Albany (20%), Glens Falls (18%), Central and W NY (10%), CT (3%), New England (3%), Canada (1%) add up to more than 50%. It is silly to compare a day area like Belleayre and a destination area like Gore. The people driving by Belleayre (and the Catskills) are looking for better terrain and snow conditions. This was beaten to death in a Gore thread about a week ago.
By the way Gore is a cash cow for ORDA.

Gore has been Orda's golden child as of late, and with the continued expansion I wouldn't be surprised if ultimately Gore turns into a state run resort with hotels/etc in North Creek.

So if they can say "hey we try to open early, close late, get a pass here", can you really blame them?. Like those who argue for Whiteface/Gore about ticket prices, all Belleayre has to generate revenue is a lift ticket and food sales. So they give away some comp stuff? What is the chance alot of those people who got it would have never come other wise . So they came, they got there and maybe purchased some food, money made that wouldnt have been there. Who knows maybe they will come back.

I dont know what else they can do to cut costs more and still have a place that people would actually want to come to. Last season they closed and reopen trails throughout the day, while they groomed them so they wouldn't run a night shift. Belleayres lodges are antique even compared to the Gore/Whiteface Lodges, and as stated before their snowmaking capability esp compared to some mountains is like a flurry next to a blizzard.

I too would once and for all like to see the financials for Belleayre

Gore is ORDA's golden child? Are you joking? Watch the May, 2009 ORDA meeting where the ORDA Board of Directors tries to hold up the bought, paid and delivered used fixed grip triple (the plan called for a HS Quad) that is to be installed next summer. The Top Ridge Triple was also supposed to be a HS quad, not a used triple from Whiteface. All the upgrades going on at Gore over the last few years have been on various UMPs since the 1980s! Gore's 1964 gondola that went to the top of Gore was replaced in 1999 with a Gondola that goes only 200 vertical feet above the Adirondack Express HS Triple. It took 5 years to get a green trail from the top of the new gondola. Why didn't the new gondola go to the top of Gore? The High Peaks double was shortened to accomodate the top lift building. What happened? Maybe because a longer gondola with a bigger vertical was destined for WF. The WF gondola was not the best use of scarce funds. The Little WF double should have been a cheaper HS quad, Gore's gondola could go to the top of Gore and there might have been money left over to make the new Lookout Triple a HSQuad.

The development at the bottom of Gore is all on private land. ORDA and Gore will not make any money on the sale or rental of rooms, townhouses, condos, nor will they make any money on food/bar/shopping, etc. This is just like Belleayre.

When I am not skiing at Gore I day trip in the Catskills. I wish the terrain in the Catskills could expand at the 4 places I ski. But over the last 20 years only Windham has really increased its size. I go to Gore (and WF) because for me the skiing is better than the Catskills. Belleayre could blow snow like Hunter and I am still not going to spend a weekend in the Catskills.

 

[tjf67]

Hey Everyone,

Well as the title suggests at the bottom is a link to e-sign a petition in support of Belleayre Mountain, New York. Basically, Belle is a state owned mountain and in the past Whiteface and Gore have been getting much funding from the state while Belle was overlooked. Please sign the petition to help show how much support the mountain has in an effort to get the plans put on paper and and get the mountain improvments rolling!!

Thank you to everyone who signs!!

http://www.petitiononline.com/djkelly2/

Let the place close. Send the saving up to gore and whiteface and be done with it.

 

[catskills]

x10003q - thanks for the explanation "new lodge at Gore is a knock-down "

Sounds like you drive up from NJ and spend a lot of money in NY state. The NY state tax payers appreciate that.

I would add that in recent years Hunter Mtn has spent a lot of money on lift side ski in and ski out accommodations. Many of the hotels in the Catskills offer awesome midweek ski packages.

 

[evantrentful]

There is a lot of wrong information about Gore in your paragraph. The "new lodge" at Gore is a knock-down and rebuild of an existing warming hut on North Creek town property in the Ski Bowl area. It mostly operates for the tubing and the small 150 vertical triple that has night skiing. The money to do this is coming from an $800,000. grant that the Town of Johnsburg recieved from the Federal government.
" The town of Johnsburg has already secured about $800,000 in federal funding to renovate a ski hut on the Ski Bowl property and has also applied for a $520,000 grant from the state Office of Small Cities to build a triple-chair lift."
http://www.adirondack-goremountain.com/Plan_Linked_To_Ski_Area.htm
Gore gets 3% of its skiers from the Hudson Valley and 33% from NJ, NYC, and LI. Albany (20%), Glens Falls (18%), Central and W NY (10%), CT (3%), New England (3%), Canada (1%) add up to more than 50%. It is silly to compare a day area like Belleayre and a destination area like Gore. The people driving by Belleayre (and the Catskills) are looking for better terrain and snow conditions. This was beaten to death in a Gore thread about a week ago.
By the way Gore is a cash cow for ORDA.


Gore is ORDA's golden child? Are you joking? Watch the May, 2009 ORDA meeting where the ORDA Board of Directors tries to hold up the bought, paid and delivered used fixed grip triple (the plan called for a HS Quad) that is to be installed next summer. The Top Ridge Triple was also supposed to be a HS quad, not a used triple from Whiteface. All the upgrades going on at Gore over the last few years have been on various UMPs since the 1980s! Gore's 1964 gondola that went to the top of Gore was replaced in 1999 with a Gondola that goes only 200 vertical feet above the Adirondack Express HS Triple. It took 5 years to get a green trail from the top of the new gondola. Why didn't the new gondola go to the top of Gore? The High Peaks double was shortened to accomodate the top lift building. What happened? Maybe because a longer gondola with a bigger vertical was destined for WF. The WF gondola was not the best use of scarce funds. The Little WF double should have been a cheaper HS quad, Gore's gondola could go to the top of Gore and there might have been money left over to make the new Lookout Triple a HSQuad.

The development at the bottom of Gore is all on private land. ORDA and Gore will not make any money on the sale or rental of rooms, townhouses, condos, nor will they make any money on food/bar/shopping, etc. This is just like Belleayre.

When I am not skiing at Gore I day trip in the Catskills. I wish the terrain in the Catskills could expand at the 4 places I ski. But over the last 20 years only Windham has really increased its size. I go to Gore (and WF) because for me the skiing is better than the Catskills. Belleayre could blow snow like Hunter and I am still not going to spend a weekend in the Catskills.

I shouldnt have said Golden Child. I think Whiteface/Gore are awesome and I perfer them anyday to Belleayre. I didnt mean to make it sound like Gore is ORDA's favorite, more that its experiencing a time of huge growth and expansion. Its a huge project, two new mountain areas, three lifts, a dozen new trails. Whiteface saw its Gondi in 1999, Facelift HSQ in 2004, Lookout monutain expansion with new lift, Kids Campus expansion with its own lodge.... Belleayre got their first and only 1300ftvert HSQaud in 2006.... and 2 'new' trails.... thats about it for the last decade.
So my point is they have really not alot else going for them, so why does everyone freak out when they blow alittle snow in apirl to try and extend the season just alittle to brag about last closing date.

The Northwoods gondola at gore didnt go to the Gore summit its because they wanted to create a more family friendly summit on Bear mountain that could handle the large flow of people, they built it for them not for us. Its convenient for sure that it costs less to run to a lesser peak, but the real reason is what its intention is for. A two person gondola running to the Gore summit in the 1960's made sense, running an 8pack Gondi in the 90's makes no sense. A highspeed on Top Ridge would have been nice, im sure you hate that chair ride as much as me, but considering they have enough trouble keeping lifts spinning, esp midweek, I dont think that would make much sense in the end given traffic flow.

I also have to disagree with the whiteface gondola not being a smart choice, it made perfect sense given whitefaces layout. Up until last year Whiteface would only have to run the Gondola and Summit quad to have 98% of its terrain accessible and able to get back to a lift, but thats mainly because of how the mountain itself lends to flow top to bottom and the runs out to a common area. Replacing the LittleWF chair with a HSQaud would still require another HSQ to get to its base area, so now they have to run three lifts all the time (four counting the Lookout Lift). Midweek alot of times FaceLift quad is shutdown because its not needed and doesnt effect open trails.
Gore is a very different mountain with distinct pods. If the top ridge lift doesnt run, you cant get out of there. If Northside lift isnt running, you cant get out of there, Burnt ridge ditto, Darkside, ditto.

 

[x10003q]

I shouldnt have said Golden Child. I think Whiteface/Gore are awesome and I perfer them anyday to Belleayre. I didnt mean to make it sound like Gore is ORDA's favorite, more that its experiencing a time of huge growth and expansion. Its a huge project, two new mountain areas, three lifts, a dozen new trails. Whiteface saw its Gondi in 1999, Facelift HSQ in 2004, Lookout monutain expansion with new lift, Kids Campus expansion with its own lodge.... Belleayre got their first and only 1300ftvert HSQaud in 2006.... and 2 'new' trails.... thats about it for the last decade.
So my point is they have really not alot else going for them, so why does everyone freak out when they blow alittle snow in apirl to try and extend the season just alittle to brag about last closing date.

The Northwoods gondola at gore didnt go to the Gore summit its because they wanted to create a more family friendly summit on Bear mountain that could handle the large flow of people, they built it for them not for us. Its convenient for sure that it costs less to run to a lesser peak, but the real reason is what its intention is for. A two person gondola running to the Gore summit in the 1960's made sense, running an 8pack Gondi in the 90's makes no sense. A highspeed on Top Ridge would have been nice, im sure you hate that chair ride as much as me, but considering they have enough trouble keeping lifts spinning, esp midweek, I dont think that would make much sense in the end given traffic flow.

I also have to disagree with the whiteface gondola not being a smart choice, it made perfect sense given whitefaces layout. Up until last year Whiteface would only have to run the Gondola and Summit quad to have 98% of its terrain accessible and able to get back to a lift, but thats mainly because of how the mountain itself lends to flow top to bottom and the runs out to a common area. Replacing the LittleWF chair with a HSQaud would still require another HSQ to get to its base area, so now they have to run three lifts all the time (four counting the Lookout Lift). Midweek alot of times FaceLift quad is shutdown because its not needed and doesnt effect open trails.
Gore is a very different mountain with distinct pods. If the top ridge lift doesnt run, you cant get out of there. If Northside lift isnt running, you cant get out of there, Burnt ridge ditto, Darkside, ditto.

I am in favor of Belleayre getting what it needs from NYS. Very few businesses can expand on cash flow. Since the Belleayre cash goes into the NYS general fund, the state should be financing the improvements at Belleayre.

The original 4 passenger Gondola at Gore was supposed to be replicated by the new 8 passenger gondola. If the original plan called for the "family friendly" gondola to stop where it is now, why did it take 5 years to put a green trail off Bear Mtn? I would not consider Fox Lair "family friendly". When Fox Lair was the only way down (or Fairview, yikes) from the Gondola it was a disaster. It would be a sheet of ice by lunch because of the traffic. Where is the warming hut/bathroom/food on Bear? Why was the High Peaks double made shorter? Maybe to make room for the new summit gondola building? The layout at Gore works now, after the fact.

The Top Ridge triple is under used because the huge flat spot that takes up about 1/3 of the run from the top of the triple. The chair is too long for too short of a run. If it was a HSQ maybe more people would use it despite the flat spot.

The reason why Gore has had a much larger expansion when compared to WF (and Belleayre) is that it has a larger limit on its total trail length. The NYS constitution limits WF (and Belleayre) to a total of 25 miles of trails and Gore is limited to 40 miles.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...tution+Gore+mountain&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

We are just going to have to disagree on the WF gondola. The amount of capital to build and maintain that lift would have been better spent on changing the Little WF lift to a HSQ and making Lookout a HSQ. The lower part of WF is a boring runout. I would much rather yoyo the Little WF lift or Lookout than ski all the way down to the base. Closing the Face lift mid week is another after the fact way to save money. Not running the Face lift is a disservice to geen and low blue sliders as Excelsior can be icy, long, and dark compared to the lower mountain. Maybe most of us can handle Excelsior, but when you ski with beginners, it is a long and sometimes scary run. You could save plenty of money by not having the Gondola in the first place. The WF gondola exists because ORDA is run by people with huge interests in Lake Placid. Two board members (Lussi and Weibrect) own huge hotel/lodges in downtown LP and one board member is the former Essex County Manager (Donaldson). They wanted that Gondola because they can benefit from it year round.

The problem is NYS running 3 ski areas. If Gore was privately owned it would not have to compete with WF and all the LP venues for its share of the money and most of the these recent upgrades would have happened years ago. The Adirondack Express was installed in 1984. I am sure it will need to be replaced or have a major update at some point.When will this happen? With the NYS's current financial problems it might not be for a while. This is the major issue with state owned ski areas - money that these places generate can go to other areas or projects in NYS.

 

[evantrentful]

Agreed. I wish Belleayre and Gore would be spun off. To many projects at all three mountains are done half fast and they end up going back to try and fix them anyway.

Im not saying the plan didnt orginal call for a gondola going to the Gore Summit, but when the majority of traffic to any resorts is family based, I think its logical to see that Gore Summit is not the best place for it and the plan was changed. You point to the fact the Ruby Run wasnt completed until years later but how many projects could be completed at once? If they put the gondola to the Gore summit what biggineer trail would they have run from there? Cloud is no better than Foxliar. They would have to do a major project to create something Green from up there that could hook around the side of Bear to flow out near the ADK Express. It would most likely mean the elimination of a few solid Blue trails from the Gore Summit that people would up roar over.
It leaves Gore Mt isolated as an expert section, which is what it is. the Gondola lines are the longest because everyone wants to use it, if that all unloaded at Gore it would be hectic at best.

Like I said Gore is a very very different mountain than Whiteface, as you said Gore can expand much larger but for better and worse the mountains that form the resort area are staggered, lending itself to having to run many lifts, no easy solution for many of the problems faced. Bear Mountain acts as a road block for all traffic coming down from Gore. I think more needs to be done using trails to connect the different areas together, so there wouldnt so much reliance on lifts running(but then again I dont know if thats even a reality given Gores topography). I wish they would create a run out trail from the base of top ridge to the sunny way area, so you wouldnt nesscarily need the TRTriple running to get people out of there. Finally they might be able to keep the Northside open without running the lift because of a connector at its base over to Brunt Ridge.
Whiteface is lucky in that LittleWF is shifted off to its side and traffic can be channeled down into the valley to skiiers left.

"We are just going to have to disagree on the WF gondola. The amount of capital to build and maintain that lift would have been better spent on changing the Little WF lift to a HSQ and making Lookout a HSQ. The lower part of WF is a boring runout. I would much rather yoyo the Little WF lift or Lookout than ski all the way down to the base."

I guess we will disagree on it. I see your points and they are valid but Gondola's attract people which is why they are installed vs quads and sixpacks, I cant even imagine many days skiing whiteface if there had been no Gondola. -5 temps with 20- 30mph winds creating god awful windchills. I think Excelsior isnt nearly as bad as Cloud or Foxliar. The only section where there tends to be an issue is right at the begginning when it makes the first hook right and intersects with Paron's Run. But still nothing nearly as steep foxliar or cloud. The other thing is that Excelsior huddles in the trees and follows a valley run out, so theres never those intimidating moments of seeing ledges and steeper drop offs.

And though you dont enjoy the lower section of the mountain, the majority of people like skiing top to bottom. I myself enjoy the end run off too to just cruise and practice surface trick etc.

 

[dmc]

Best NYS owned ski area thread ever... :beer:


I need to get back to Gore... Last year was my first trip and the conditions sucked but i could see some really good lines..

So... I made a promise to myself to get back...

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Wow, you guys wrote some great essays and you have everything figured out.

 

[evantrentful]

ahhh comeon I think we have kept it pretty civil compared to past blowouts on here. vote us in for ORDA board of directors the meetings would be more fun.... or boring

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

ahhh comeon I think we have kept it pretty civil compared to past blowouts on here. vote us in for ORDA board of directors the meetings would be more fun.... or boring

Just kidding with ya. BTW- Your history question on SKIADK is answered.

 

[evantrentful]

Just kidding with ya. BTW- Your history question on SKIADK is answered.

haha I know no problemo. thanks for the reply

 

[faceplant]

cool... but they do give a lot of stuff away...

one time in spring i was there & they said the lift ticket could be a voucher for a day the next seasn
if you came back with it
so i put it away in a special place.....or so I thought

well, the summer went by & next winter came
& i looked for that old ticket but I couldn't find it anywhere

.....and as it turns out, my wife threw it out :blink:
said i was a packrat that collects to much sht

so much for my 1 free pass
my luck, wtf

God love her

any other 'packrats' out there?

.

 

[x10003q]

Agreed. I wish Belleayre and Gore would be spun off. To many projects at all three mountains are done half fast and they end up going back to try and fix them anyway.

Im not saying the plan didnt orginal call for a gondola going to the Gore Summit, but when the majority of traffic to any resorts is family based, I think its logical to see that Gore Summit is not the best place for it and the plan was changed. You point to the fact the Ruby Run wasnt completed until years later but how many projects could be completed at once? If they put the gondola to the Gore summit what biggineer trail would they have run from there? Cloud is no better than Foxliar. They would have to do a major project to create something Green from up there that could hook around the side of Bear to flow out near the ADK Express. It would most likely mean the elimination of a few solid Blue trails from the Gore Summit that people would up roar over.
It leaves Gore Mt isolated as an expert section, which is what it is. the Gondola lines are the longest because everyone wants to use it, if that all unloaded at Gore it would be hectic at best.

Like I said Gore is a very very different mountain than Whiteface, as you said Gore can expand much larger but for better and worse the mountains that form the resort area are staggered, lending itself to having to run many lifts, no easy solution for many of the problems faced. Bear Mountain acts as a road block for all traffic coming down from Gore. I think more needs to be done using trails to connect the different areas together, so there wouldnt so much reliance on lifts running(but then again I dont know if thats even a reality given Gores topography). I wish they would create a run out trail from the base of top ridge to the sunny way area, so you wouldnt nesscarily need the TRTriple running to get people out of there. Finally they might be able to keep the Northside open without running the lift because of a connector at its base over to Brunt Ridge.
Whiteface is lucky in that LittleWF is shifted off to its side and traffic can be channeled down into the valley to skiiers left.

"We are just going to have to disagree on the WF gondola. The amount of capital to build and maintain that lift would have been better spent on changing the Little WF lift to a HSQ and making Lookout a HSQ. The lower part of WF is a boring runout. I would much rather yoyo the Little WF lift or Lookout than ski all the way down to the base."

I guess we will disagree on it. I see your points and they are valid but Gondola's attract people which is why they are installed vs quads and sixpacks, I cant even imagine many days skiing whiteface if there had been no Gondola. -5 temps with 20- 30mph winds creating god awful windchills. I think Excelsior isnt nearly as bad as Cloud or Foxliar. The only section where there tends to be an issue is right at the begginning when it makes the first hook right and intersects with Paron's Run. But still nothing nearly as steep foxliar or cloud. The other thing is that Excelsior huddles in the trees and follows a valley run out, so theres never those intimidating moments of seeing ledges and steeper drop offs.

And though you dont enjoy the lower section of the mountain, the majority of people like skiing top to bottom. I myself enjoy the end run off too to just cruise and practice surface trick etc.

There is a lot in your response that I do not understand. I am just going to comment on a few things.

Cloud is a green trail. I know Gore maps have it blue but it is a green.The hardest thing about Cloud is the long flat before the Saddle Lodge. Where did all the beginners go after they rode the old gondola? They skied down Cloud and Upper Steilhang. Upper Steilhang has the same pitch as Cloud but it is a little bit narrower. It is another trail that many beginners can ski.

There is a trail called Tannery that extends from below the Top Ridge Triple all the way to Sunway. It has been closed by Gore for years. The lower portion is on the current trail map as a green trail on the Gore Snowshoe and Cross County Trail System. It was flat and long and involved a lot of x-county work while wearing alpine equipment. It was not fun.

I do not think you have spent much time at Gore. This is too bad because it is a great place to ski/board.

HPD- I wish I had everything figured out. If I did I would be skiing instead of working tomorrow and I would not be skiing on a WROD but a 100% open mountain.:grin:

 

[catskills]

There seem to be a lot of folks that know a lot about Gore. I ask this question.

Is Gore really a destination resort?

Some other threads here have questioned the statement, "Gore is truly a destination resort. "

When I think of destination resort I think of slopeside lodging. The closet lodge to Gore seems to be the The The INN at Gore Mountain which is 500 feet away with only 16 rooms.

Smugglers Notch is a small quality destination resort that has some awesome slopeside lodging and great family atmosphere. Does Gore lodging compare to this?

I would not call Hunter Mountain a destination resort but even Hunter has Slopeside Lodging.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Is Gore really a destination resort?

Not yet, but they're working on it.

When I think of destination resort I think of slopeside lodging.

I'm pretty sure most people consider Whiteface a destination resort and WF; thankfully, has no slopside lodging.

Smugglers Notch is a small quality destination resort that has some awesome slopeside lodging and great family atmosphere. Does Gore lodging compare to this?

I would not call Hunter Mountain a destination resort but even Hunter has Slopeside Lodging.

Hard to follow your lodging comparisons. You need slopeside lodging to be a destination resort, but even if you have it you still may not qualify.

So what else is needed for a ski area to be a destination IYHO?

 

[ski_resort_observer]

A destination resort is defined as a resort where a majority of the guests are not day skiers but weekend, multinight guests. It's not about the type of lodging but rather the fact that guests stay at or near the resort overnight, most for at least two, more nights during a holiday. Slopeside, walk to lifts, shuttle to lifts, hotel, motel, condos, townhouses makes not a diference.

 

[catskills]

A destination resort is defined as a resort where a majority of the guests are not day skiers but weekend, multinight guests. It's not about the type of lodging but rather the fact that guests stay at or near the resort overnight, most for at least two, more nights during a holiday. Slopeside, walk to lifts, shuttle to lifts, hotel, motel, condos, townhouses makes not a diference.

Yes I guess that is probably considered the true definition of a destination resort. I can see where there may be some exceptions to this rule. I think a true destination resort needs something more than just numbers. WF may get a pass on the slopeside lodging because of how much there is to do in Lake Placid. Smugglers may get a pass on not a lot to do in that area but has got great slopeside lodging and an awesome ski program for kids. and family. IMHO you need more than just more multi-night guests than single day skiers and riders. Gore seems to be a long way away from meeting any of the destination resort criteria.