Killington/POWDR - how much does bad PR cost them per year in lost revenue?

[BenedictGomez]

I live near NYC and disagree about sugarbush. the additional 45 minutes in the car is no biggie for us. But I can see where you're coming from. That being said, anything south of killington is a non-starter for me.

I live in NYC and disagree with him about Sugarbush AND Jay (and Smuggs and Stowe). Life is short and I'd much rather ski superior terrain than worry about a few extra hours driving. And yeah, from that perspective, on a personal level I see no point in skiing anything in southern Vermont unless I'm "storm chasing" (storm dropped 15 inches on s.VT and 3 inches on n.VT).

FWIW, I havent skied Killington in YEARS, because I vowed to never ski there again after getting fed up with the sort of nightmarish crowds that just aren't found in n.VT, but from what I'm hearing in the various "anti-Killington Threads", apparently massive NYC+Boston crowds arent an issue anymore? C'est vrai? If so, maybe I'll return to Killington next season for a weekend.

 

[2knees]

Unfortunately the suck weather this season will result in most of your occasional skiers ending any thoughts of skiing by the end of March instead of the end of April. There will be marginal additional dollars spent at Killington or anywhere else in April. Do you really think that Killington will get many people from Okemo, Mt Snow , Bromley or Stratton ? If I’m a Stowe, Jay or Sugarbush pass holder or regular I’m going to stay as far north as possible as the season winds down

You're probably right, unfortunately.

I'm no k basher/homer but as a day tripper i will always make the drive up there to ski as long as they stay open. Memorial day was a tradition for us years ago so I can hope that they make extra cash this april and push it as far as they can but i sincerely doubt they would or even could do it.

 

[St. Bear]

I live in NYC and disagree with him about Sugarbush AND Jay (and Smuggs and Stowe). Life is short and I'd much rather ski superior terrain than worry about a few extra hours driving. And yeah, from that perspective, on a personal level I see no point in skiing anything in southern Vermont unless I'm "storm chasing" (storm dropped 15 inches on s.VT and 3 inches on n.VT).

FWIW, I havent skied Killington in YEARS, because I vowed to never ski there again after getting fed up with the sort of nightmarish crowds that just aren't found in n.VT, but from what I'm hearing in the various "anti-Killington Threads", apparently massive NYC+Boston crowds arent an issue anymore? C'est vrai? If so, maybe I'll return to Killington next season for a weekend.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but when you have kids, 1-2 hours additional time in the car is a lifetime. There's a reason places like Mt. Snow and Stratton are so popular and people don't continue driving further north.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

St. Bear...thats why i drive at night...kids are asleep, they dont know the difference between arriving at 10pm or midnight....

 

[St. Bear]

St. Bear...thats why i drive at night...kids are asleep, they dont know the difference between arriving at 10pm or midnight....

Smart. But you have to acknowledge most people don't think that way.

Just like the average skier doesn't think that 1-2 hours additional driving is worth "better" skiing, which again leads to the success of the So. VT resorts.

 

[Highway Star]

Unfortunately the suck weather this season will result in most of your occasional skiers ending any thoughts of skiing by the end of March instead of the end of April. There will be marginal additional dollars spent at Killington or anywhere else in April. Do you really think that Killington will get many people from Okemo, Mt Snow , Bromley or Stratton ? If I’m a Stowe, Jay or Sugarbush pass holder or regular I’m going to stay as far north as possible as the season winds down

Nice straw man arguement!!! Almost as good as threecy!

Killington, or anywhere else, isn't going to get many "occasional" skiers in April. What you FAIL to note is that there are plenty of serious, hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington that will infact come to Killington when their mountain closes. I see them at Killington every year!!!

 

[WWF-VT]

Nice straw man arguement!!! Almost as good as threecy!

Killington, or anywhere else, isn't going to get many "occasional" skiers in April. What you FAIL to note is that there are plenty of serious, hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington that will infact come to Killington when their mountain closes. I see them at Killington every year!!!

My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april. they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”

What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season

 

[2knees]

My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april. they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”

What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season

my initial thought was that since many areas would be closing earlier then usual, then you would have some pickup by the resorts that were still open but taking emotion out of it, i see your point. this season has been so bad i doubt any casual skiers are even considering going anymore. by the time may rolls around, in a normal year, i would agree that it's truly just the hardcores anyway which is where you get into the whole "can you make money staying open forever" debate.

probably splitting hairs anyway, april or may still late season for the average skier.

 

[Highway Star]

My response was to the post by 2knees who said that “killington is probably going to make a shitload of cash in april. they’ll be one of the only places left standing in a week”

What you FAIL to note is that all those “hardcore skiers and riders south of Killington” have not resulted in Killington making a “shitload of cash” when other mountains have closed for the season

Casual skiers don't ski in April.

Harcore skiers from other mountains go to the only place open - be it sugarbush, Jay, or possibly Killington.

S I M P L E.

 

[Geoff]

two observations from a non-K skier.
first, as I drive through route 4, it appears the local businesses, particularly lodging, have taken a major hit in the last few years.

second, in listening to the radio in the car on my commute, I hear Kton commercials which perplex me. They start off with a deep somewhat intimidating voice intoning "The Beast" and then they talk about family friendly atmosphere and their kids programs. seems to me these are competing messages. if you're trying to attract families with little kids, don't brand yourself, the Beast. On the other hand, consumers drawn to the beast, probably don't want a mtn full of kids/families.

When Killington contracted skier visits from a million+ down to maybe 650K to 700K and Pico going to a 5-day schedule, the fringe lodging in Mendon got crushed. They used to live on the overflow when the lodging on the Access Road sold out. It doesn't sell out now. With the lodging there closed or in distress, the restaurants on Route 4 also had a tough time. This season has been brutal for the Access Road businesses but that's more tied to the weather than anything the current owners are doing. The ski shops were stuck with excess inventory and started blowing stuff out before Presidents Week. I've never seen that before. It wouldn't surprise me to see a few business failures this year.

Killington is being run by an ops guy. The first year they showed up, they spent zero on marketing. When business collapsed, they started spending a little but it's nothing like the Preston Smith hype machine of the 1980's and first half of the 1990's. They have no clue how to market the resort. "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign. Killington should go back to the Preston Smith list of superlatives. First to open. Last to close. Biggest snowmaking system in the world. Best night life in the east. Of course, you have to actually be first to open, last to close, and blow snow on everything to market the place that way. In the Preston Smith years, this year would have been a textbook example of the Killington competitive advantage. He would have blown snow on everything. He would have blown a glacier on Superstar with skiing to Memorial Day. The message is that no matter how bad everybody else is, Killington is 100% open and a safe bet to book a vacation and a great value as a place to get a season pass and invite all your day ticket friends up.

Even in their leanest years where they were at risk of defaulting on their loans, ASC still got it and marketed Killington properly. The current owner/operator is risking losing critical mass. If they don't get the skier visits, there's no night life. They can't afford to blow snow. It causes a death spiral where fewer and fewer people show up every year.

 

[snowmonster]

Killington is being run by an ops guy. The first year they showed up, they spent zero on marketing. When business collapsed, they started spending a little but it's nothing like the Preston Smith hype machine of the 1980's and first half of the 1990's. They have no clue how to market the resort. "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign. Killington should go back to the Preston Smith list of superlatives. First to open. Last to close. Biggest snowmaking system in the world. Best night life in the east. Of course, you have to actually be first to open, last to close, and blow snow on everything to market the place that way. In the Preston Smith years, this year would have been a textbook example of the Killington competitive advantage. He would have blown snow on everything. He would have blown a glacier on Superstar with skiing to Memorial Day. The message is that no matter how bad everybody else is, Killington is 100% open and a safe bet to book a vacation and a great value as a place to get a season pass and invite all your day ticket friends up.

Looks like Boyne learned this lesson well as shown by how they operate Sunday River-Sugarloaf-Loon. Early opening at the River and late close at the Loaf. They make a ton of snow at the River and Loon. I was actually impressed by the amount of snow they blew at Loon this year. Friends at the River say that they're still actually planning to blow snow there if the weather improves. As for marketing, didn't the River claim to be the first to open in the nation last season? A pub in Bethel got in on the old Otten routine of dumping snow on Boston Common. As for superlatives, aren't they now billing the Loaf as the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi? I don't know if Boyne is making a lot of money at these places or what the ski visit numbers are but everytime I pull into the parking lot at any of these places, I hear that kid from Field of Dreams who said: "people will come." Perhaps K management should look at the Boyne playbook.

 

[deadheadskier]

In regards to marketing, one thing that hasn't been said is that marketing has become stupid cheap compared to years ago. 20 years ago, Ski, Powder and Skiing Magazines were a couple hundred pages thick and every skier/snowboarder subscribed to them all because that's where you got information. Back then, businesses had power in marketing because they controlled the content of how their business was marketed.

In today's day of internet, the magazines are dead. In today's day of radio, a large audience has dropped out to Satellite options where they don't have to hear advertisements.

The product matters more than ever today over a business having a savvy marketing department and substantial budget. Why? Word of "webmouth" is now KING. The consumer markets the product more than ever. Put a product out that people love and they will yelp, facebook and tweet to their hearts content the virtues of that product. Put a product out that people dislike.........you get buried fast and your marketing budget goes from promotion to damage control and protecting your image on the net. Businesses now have very little control on the content of how their resort is marketed. It's all about having the best product and vocal fans......

 

[SkiFanE]

Looks like Boyne learned this lesson well as shown by how they operate Sunday River-Sugarloaf-Loon. Early opening at the River and late close at the Loaf. They make a ton of snow at the River and Loon. I was actually impressed by the amount of snow they blew at Loon this year. Friends at the River say that they're still actually planning to blow snow there if the weather improves. As for marketing, didn't the River claim to be the first to open in the nation last season? A pub in Bethel got in on the old Otten routine of dumping snow on Boston Common. As for superlatives, aren't they now billing the Loaf as the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi? I don't know if Boyne is making a lot of money at these places or what the ski visit numbers are but everytime I pull into the parking lot at any of these places, I hear that kid from Field of Dreams who said: "people will come." Perhaps K management should look at the Boyne playbook.

Our first fall at SR was 2004 (ASC days), and we invited friends up for Fall Festival/Wife carrying. It was a dud...NOTHING to do..kids were bored, we ditched after 45 mins and went to Fryeburg fair. Last year...1000s of people, parking lot overflow, bands, craft fair, BBQ...awesome. I'm not sure if Boyne makes more $ on ski tickets now, but they sure get people to come, create a vibe, and they must be making $ on the concessions and that sort of stuff.

 

[dangah]

They have no clue how to market the resort. "The Beast" is a brain damaged marketing campaign...The current owner/operator is risking losing critical mass. If they don't get the skier visits, there's no night life. They can't afford to blow snow. It causes a death spiral where fewer and fewer people show up every year.

Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying. Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.

Happy spring skiing and riding y'all.

 

[snoseek]

In regards to marketing, one thing that hasn't been said is that marketing has become stupid cheap compared to years ago. 20 years ago, Ski, Powder and Skiing Magazines were a couple hundred pages thick and every skier/snowboarder subscribed to them all because that's where you got information. Back then, businesses had power in marketing because they controlled the content of how their business was marketed.

In today's day of internet, the magazines are dead. In today's day of radio, a large audience has dropped out to Satellite options where they don't have to hear advertisements.

The product matters more than ever today over a business having a savvy marketing department and substantial budget. Why? Word of "webmouth" is now KING. The consumer markets the product more than ever. Put a product out that people love and they will yelp, facebook and tweet to their hearts content the virtues of that product. Put a product out that people dislike.........you get buried fast and your marketing budget goes from promotion to damage control and protecting your image on the net. Businesses now have very little control on the content of how their resort is marketed. It's all about having the best product and vocal fans......

this, and its so clear the resorts that get this and the ones that don't. Times have certainly changed.

 

[bobbutts]

Nice comments from HS, Oakapple, adiron, dhs
I guess I don't disagree with you all the time.

 

[Ski the Moguls]

Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying. Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.
...

It is not fair to just pick and choose a couple of statistics to try and prove your point. Can we have those VT vs. K skier visit stats for each year since the year before POWDR took over? Please. Thank you.

 

[steamboat1]

All I know is there wasn't a room available at either the Spruce Peak Lodge at Stowe or The Jay Hotel Thurs. night. Was the Killington Grand fully booked?

 

[Rogman]

Not a fan of the Beast campaign, it is silly and juvenile. Drawing a cause and effect connection between it and an uptick in skier visits may result in erroneous conclusions. This year at least, it is more likely that Killington has done well with respect to the Vt. average because of extensive price cutting. There have been deals available all winter long. The lots have been full, but my guess is the yield is way down. That's where K's marketing has been effective.

 

[Geoff]

Your comments on our marketing campaign is certainly a matter of opinion and it probably doesn't make much sense to debate it. My feelings are only a little hurt. :smile: What I can say is that since the launch of that campaign, skier visits at Killington are out-performing the state of Vermont as a whole. For example, last year, VT was up in skier visits year over year by about 4% whereas Killington was up about 12%. While skier numbers won't be up this year in the Northeast, it appears that Killington is faring much better than the state. Is part of that because of a marketing campaign? Hard saying. Is Killington in a skier visit "death spiral"? Certainly not.

Happy spring skiing and riding y'all.

Enjoy your mandatory furlough.