The "Sugarbush Thread"

[jaybird]

Not before LBO. LBO added all that snowmaking to Lower Birdland. I recall in the ASC years that they did make a lot of snow there to add another route down. But it is pretty rocky so I don't recall Win's crew making much snow there during my time.

 

[Castlerockrisk]

I will place a vote for quality of snow making vs quantity. Its not only about the water - additional air and adding snow a little at a time instead of making a pile of ice thats needs to cure would be nice. I agree that the current system is impervious to most thaws and rain events and may be economical but the snow making of old skied better on most days. I have said my peace. Having said that I am glad that the mountain hosted a great holiday week considering the weather. I think that the guests were happy.

 

[djd66]

I understand that funds are very limited this season, it does seem like it has effected snowmaking production. I know that the rain they have over Xmas kllled them. But currently they are only blowing Murphy's and North Lynx. Is it limited capacity or they are just trying not to spend what they would have in a normal year?

 

[Hawk]

They only have capacity to blow one trail at a time more or less. What they are dong sounds about right. Also it is not super cold so I bet they are confided to upper mountain.

 

[mikec142]

I'm certainly not a snowmaking expert, but it seems like SB is going to have a solid 10 day run of prime snowmaking conditions.

 

[Smellytele]

I'm certainly not a snowmaking expert, but it seems like SB is going to have a solid 10 day run of prime snowmaking conditions.

With no natural insight

 

[Hawk]

It is certainly getting colder this week. Not so much last week. They also have had lots of R*%$ so the water flow in the Mad River is up. We will see how they do.

 

[cdskier]

Honestly I think SB is doing quite well in the snow-making dept. They only have a handful of trails left at LP that they haven't blown snow on yet (Birdland, the Hot-Shot/Waterfall/Lower Hot-Shot route, Lower Snowball/Racer's, and Steins for the most part if I'm remembering everything correctly). That's pretty good considering the weather they've had.

If right now they're running guns on Murphy's, Birch, and Sunrise...I'd agree with Hawk that those together would be pretty much use up their capacity.

 

[thetrailboss]

I understand that funds are very limited this season, it does seem like it has effected snowmaking production. I know that the rain they have over Xmas kllled them. But currently they are only blowing Murphy's and North Lynx. Is it limited capacity or they are just trying not to spend what they would have in a normal year?

Funds are limited? We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass. They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC. I'm not buying it. That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.

 

[Hawk]

Based on the temps and weather they have received, I think they are doing the best they can do. We can't compare SB to other snowmaking giants. They do not have the same philosophy.

 

[thetrailboss]

Based on the temps and weather they have received, I think they are doing the best they can do. We can't compare SB to other snowmaking giants. They do not have the same philosophy.

Exactly.

 

[WinS]

Funds are limited? We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass. They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC. I'm not buying it. That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.

The new team at Sugarbush has been blowing as much snow as physically possible. They can put out approximately 3,800 gallons per minute at LP and close to 2,500 at ME. The amount depends upon Wet bulb temperatures and snowmaking doesn‘t begin to get efficient until it is below 25 wet bulb. The low energy guns can max around 80 GPM at cold temps so if you do the math who can figure out how many guns can run. When wet bulb temps are higher the guns may do only 20-30 GMP. Earlier they were making snow at more marginal temperatures (28 wet bulb) than normal because the weather had been so warm and the Holidays were approaching. You also do not want snowmaking scattered all over the hill. The snowmakers have to stay on top of their work and be able to monitor and adjust as needed. Shady Jay can tell you what that is like. Yesterday and today the temps are marginal but the week is getting colder. I would guess that the clusters will be Birch, Sunrise, Hot Shot. Alternatively Murphy‘s, Birdland and maybe capacity for elsewhere. Or Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge and finally Stein’s. After that at LP I would guess they will refresh where some more depth is needed and then on to the traditional Spring trails. At ME after Cruiser and Looking look are done, Reimergasse (terrain park), Cliffs, CrackerJack Brambles remain.

 

[thetrailboss]

The new team at Sugarbush has been blowing as much snow as physically possible. They can put out approximately 3,800 gallons per minute at LP and close to 2,500 at ME. The amount depends upon Wet bulb temperatures and snowmaking doesn‘t begin to get efficient until it is below 25 wet bulb. The low energy guns can max around 80 GPM at cold temps so if you do the math who can figure out how many guns can run. When wet bulb temps are higher the guns may do only 20-30 GMP. Earlier they were making snow at more marginal temperatures (28 wet bulb) than normal because the weather had been so warm and the Holidays were approaching. You also do not want snowmaking scattered all over the hill. The snowmakers have to stay on top of their work and be able to monitor and adjust as needed. Shady Jay can tell you what that is like. Yesterday and today the temps are marginal but the week is getting colder. I would guess that the clusters will be Birch, Sunrise, Hot Shot. Alternatively Murphy‘s, Birdland and maybe capacity for elsewhere. Or Lower Snowball and Racer’s Edge and finally Stein’s. After that at LP I would guess they will refresh where some more depth is needed and then on to the traditional Spring trails. At ME after Cruiser and Looking look are done, Reimergasse (terrain park), Cliffs, CrackerJack Brambles remain.

Makes sense. I figured it was more due to weather than money.

 

[djd66]

Funds are limited? We're talking about the owners of the IKON pass. They bragged about sales being up with these passes IIRC. I'm not buying it. That said, they have been very cheap with Solitude this year.

They are making next to nothing in Food/Beverage, no Seasonal Programs, not many lessons, very few rentals,... do I need to go on? I am just being realistic about the top line revenue.

 

[HowieT2]

The issue with the snowmaking isnt money or intentions, its the temperatures. Its been relatively warm. see below from someone at Stowe.

The temperatures have been very warm too. Looking at the Mansfield COOP data for the Summit (ie. coldest place around)....


December 2020 was +7 to +8F above normal. And here's where it impacts snowmaking:


Normal December... 22F Max and 8F Min


This December... 29F Max and 17F Min


The mean temperature this month was 22.5F (at the summit, coldest place on the hill) compared to 15.3F normally. That's actually an extremely significant difference for our snowmaking. Normal December temperatures are just cold enough for round the clock snowmaking on average, but if all elevations average 5-8F higher than normal we are crossing that threshold where it's very unfavorable. MVL ASOS down in radiation-ville was +5.3... a significant positive departure.

 

[thetrailboss]

They are making next to nothing in Food/Beverage, no Seasonal Programs, not many lessons, very few rentals,... do I need to go on? I am just being realistic about the top line revenue.

Right, but as BMM posted, most of their revenue is from pass sales--IKON in particular.

 

[djd66]

Right, but as BMM posted, most of their revenue is from pass sales--IKON in particular.

This is what he posted:
45% Mountain Access (lift tix, passes, etc.)
15% F&B
10% Ski School
10% Lodging
7% Retail
5% Rental
8% Misc./Other

55% is from everything else, I know nothing about their financials, but I am fairly certain the bottom line is way off.

 

[thetrailboss]

This is what he posted:
45% Mountain Access (lift tix, passes, etc.)
15% F&B
10% Ski School
10% Lodging
7% Retail
5% Rental
8% Misc./Other

55% is from everything else, I know nothing about their financials, but I am fairly certain the bottom line is way off.

Right.

But this is moot since Win and others have said that it's the weather that is the big issue. My point is it is not money.

 

[tumbler]

I'll give them credit for doing well making snow with their philosophy. My preference would be to not park on a trail for a week and make giant piles but maybe run a couple days trying for even coverage by moving the guns, then move on for a couple days elsewhere then come back. If this was done there could be more open like Murphy's and Birdland on snowmaking. Yes, I am old school and love the Ratnicks and SR-7 guns and the snow they make but they just cost too much money to run.

 

[mikec142]

Base web cam shows it's been snowing for at least the past hour. However, I'm not seeing snow at the summit snow stake and it looks like an inch at the mid-mountain stake with flurries there.