The "Sugarbush Thread"

[x10003q]

Mak, I guess you have not been in the real estate game up lately. Snow creek is right on the hill next to the Valley House and is true ski in ski out. Compared to Clay Brook, Rice Brook and Gad Brooke it is a bargain and actually the going rate. They have been coming on the market and closing in a month at that price.

We rented for a week in the next Snow Creek building closer to the trails. That is a great location. The unit was great with a good view of the upper trails.

 

[jonnyco14]

Here are the survey results that was taken a few months ago.

 

[thetrailboss]

Here are the survey results that was taken a few months ago.

Some of the comments are true gems.

Like to see a seniors terrain park/area

How many broken hips would there be?

bear mountain expansion and lifts

Bear Mountain?

nice bump runs with good snow that do not allow boarders. They ruin the bumps, push the snow off the hill. I would also like the ski patrol to take complaints against young people who board/ski too close to other skiers. Last year I was laughed at by a bunch of young guys because the ski patrol would do nothing. The young guys were behind me on the chairlift and pointed them out to the ski patrol at the top. Ski patrol did not even stop them to talk. the young guys laughed at me.

Yes, those damn snowboarders ruin the moguls. I think this reviewer needs to move to Deer Valley. That sounds like this reviewer's cup of tea.

Lifts are fine

This is a minority view!

North Lynx is horrible. Castlerock could be improved.

No idea what this means.

Please stop wasting money on abject stupidity like the eyesore covered magic carpet at Ellen (for which beginners will need to navigate major skier congestion and a downhill slope to reach??!!).

Please tell me how you really feel.

And boy there are a lot of comments about lift reliability (not just NRX or Slide Brook).

operate clay brook express more often expand terrain so more skiing options manage ski on connections better

That Clay Brook Express. I don't know about that one. Is that the elevator for the Clay Brook units?

More uphill skiing!

Damn, bro can defy gravity!

 

[cdskier]

WTH...some of these comments are bizarre. Upgrade Castlerock lift? Make access from the top of HG to CR easier? More padded seats on the chairs?

At least all the comments about North Ridge and Slide Brook are justified...

 

[cdskier]

Some of the comments are true gems.


How many broken hips would there be?


Bear Mountain?


Yes, those damn snowboarders ruin the moguls. I think this reviewer needs to move to Deer Valley. That sounds like this reviewer's cup of tea.


This is a minority view!


No idea what this means.


Please tell me how you really feel.

And boy there are a lot of comments about lift reliability (not just NRX or Slide Brook).


That Clay Brook Express. I don't know about that one. Is that the elevator for the Clay Brook units?


Damn, bro can defy gravity!

Hah...I didn't have time to copy/paste individual comments but some of those sure caught my eye as well!

 

[thetrailboss]

Part Deux.

hahaha screw lift upgrades get the ones we have working, but yes maybe north ridge since it breaks every day.

This person has given up all hope.

Did not understand how to answer previous question

OK, I was not expecting this answer.

Better management of side-country skiing an inbound wood skiing.

There were lots of comments about "sidecountry" and maintenance. By definition. sidecountry is adjacent to resort boundaries and is not maintained. That's what makes it sidecountry as opposed to in-bounds.

more consistent snow conditions

In other words, please turn down the heat and seed the clouds.

Communication and transparency about mountain operations, specifically related to lift maintenance. Also, genuinely concerned that Sugarbush will go down the path of other highly commercialized mountains and start charging for parking and basic amenities.

(c) the new email communications have led a lot of families to start openly missing the Sugarbush experience of the past.

A lot of folks in here have honed in on communication issues.

Sugarbush has lost its soul. There is no core identity that makes Sugarbush special or outstanding anymore. The commitment to its tradition of quality expert terrain and the youth programs that created great skiers to ski it seems gone. The sense of local community and attention to its committed regulars has been replaced by mass appeal and generic commercialization. An example is The Wunderbar, and its staff that formerly was a hotspot for locals and mountain staff and now feels like a food court experience.

The authenticity that was there before Alterra purchased it. The mountain's identity and what made it unique and special has gradually been stripped each season.

It’s becoming increasingly corporate and losing its culture.

The local feel felt pre-acquisition

Understandable.

A season pass that is Sugarbush only, that includes both Lincoln Peak and Mt Ellen areas, with no blackout dates that is significantly less expensive than the Ikon pass.

Great idea. Presumably that money would stay at Sugarbush. But as we all know, IKON is Alterra's bread and butter and anyone who questions or criticizes IKON will be banished from Alterra resorts.

 

[thetrailboss]

WTH...some of these comments are bizarre. Upgrade Castlerock lift? Make access from the top of HG to CR easier? More padded seats on the chairs?

At least all the comments about North Ridge and Slide Brook are justified...

The number of comments about lifts were just staggering.

 

[thetrailboss]

Part Three.

Personal touch ,common sense good fair business decisions. (NON BIG CORPORATION $$$$DECISIONS) Being able to have water at Allen's lodge!!!! Pay with cash!!!

Damn, bring back cash?

All day backcountry

Yeah it sucks when that backcountry closes down. Again, backcountry is never really open or closed per se. And is this one saying that nightskiing in the backcountry is what this poster wants?

The surrounding community needs tighter restrictions/permit on structures and additional dining options

???????

The new CEO is distant and non approachable compared to Win Smith

We miss Win and the vibe on the mountain when he was involved

10-4.

I witness too many skiers/riders drinking alcohol during the ski day and going back out to ski/ride. Not a safe situation

Damn. SADD has spoken (Skiers Against Drunk Dickheads).

I will add more later.

 

[cdskier]

Great idea. Presumably that money would stay at Sugarbush. But as we all know, IKON is Alterra's bread and butter and anyone who questions or criticizes IKON will be banished from Alterra resorts.

Not sure I really understand wanting an SB-only pass that is "significantly cheaper than Ikon". Ikon is already cheaper than a stand-alone SB pass was prior to the acquisition. This seems like an unrealistic ask.

 

[thetrailboss]

Not sure I really understand wanting an SB-only pass that is "significantly cheaper than Ikon". Ikon is already cheaper than a stand-alone SB pass was prior to the acquisition. This seems like an unrealistic ask.

Agree. Probably a local who does not travel to ski and does not need the access to other areas.

 

[cdskier]

Agree. Probably a local who does not travel to ski and does not need the access to other areas.

And I think the intention for that scenario is that they already have a "locals" pass option which is cheaper than Ikon. It gives full access to Sugarbush except Saturdays. On Saturdays it is limited to ME. Before ME opens and after ME closes, it is valid 7 days a week at LP. Currently that pass for an adult is $600 cheaper than a full Ikon and $100 less than an Ikon base. I don't remember how pricing compared before the various price increases.

On a side-note, just came back from my yearly check-up at the eye Dr. My doctor is a skier as well and mentioned that he went to Sugarbush last year with his family and had a great time and is planning that as their ski vacation destination again this year.

 

[thetrailboss]

And I think the intention for that scenario is that they already have a "locals" pass option which is cheaper than Ikon. It gives full access to Sugarbush except Saturdays. On Saturdays it is limited to ME. Before ME opens and after ME closes, it is valid 7 days a week at LP. Currently that pass for an adult is $600 cheaper than a full Ikon and $100 less than an Ikon base. I don't remember how pricing compared before the various price increases.

On a side-note, just came back from my yearly check-up at the eye Dr. My doctor is a skier as well and mentioned that he went to Sugarbush last year with his family and had a great time and is planning that as their ski vacation destination again this year.

I used to have that pass back in the day as a working stiff. The Mount Ellen Plus pass. Good deal. I also had the college passes back in the day. $249 big ones.

 

[JimG.]

Agree. Probably a local who does not travel to ski and does not need the access to other areas.

I'm glad K sells a stand alone unlimited season pass still. I ski K/Pico and get a Belleayre pass or the 3 in 1.

That combo costs me 50% less than the Beast 365 and 3 in 1 last season. Never used the Ikon when I had it.

 

[ducky]

Agree. Probably a local who does not travel to ski and does not need the access to other areas.

That's my scenario, other than MRG sometimes.

 

[thetrailboss]

Some other interesting comments:

Drilling a well for a potable water supply for Allyn's Lodge so that skiers and riders could stop for a drink of water without having to buy a bottle of water at a ridiculously high price.

I understand about the buying water concern--Allyn's USED to have a cambro and plastic/paper cups. Do they not do that anymore? And this reviewer does not understand that "drilling a well" at that elevation would likely require a pretty deep well. It's not feasible.

Finding new management

Well, that could not be more direct.

more cross mtnq104.3.com access to North

What the.....?

see previous

Yeah, that is a really helpful comment.

Air conditioner

Because it is not cold enough in January.



Now as to what people associate with the "Sugarbush Brand":

be better here. alterra. ikon. expensive unless you buy a pass. lots to offer

Um, that's an interesting collection of terms.

Local, good terrain. However, I think Sugarbush is really lacking a brand identity. There are too many slogans like "be better here", "camaraderie", "this mountain makes us","The BUSH" (not to mention how offensive and tone deaf this is - I've skied here for over 40 years and have never once heard Sugarbush referred to that way).

Sorry that the term "Bush" offends you. However, you're the one who made it sexual.

I have picked up a snag cone in the marketing emails over the past couple of years and I think it really works against the resort. I think that this has improved somewhat, but I am just really confused about the words that the marketing team chooses to use in those emails.

Unfortunately when I think Sugarbush now, I think lack of communication and lift problems.

Two AZ posters. Identify yourselves!

Shitty lifts

Short and to the point.

The Bush

That's so offensive.

Avis of Vermont. We try harder but we are not hertz

OK, I was not expecting that. And I have no real familiarity with the car rental industry, so......

It used to be known as a challenging mountain that was known for its great terrain and friendly on-mountain atmosphere. Now, it is becoming stuffy, aimed more at the upper-class with their "better than you" attitudes.

Oh boy......Bernie Sanders has entered the chat.

Be Better Here except ironically management and Alterra need to be better here

This was NOT me.

The bush. I hate it. Vulgar. And George Bush. Many people say this, not just me.

This person must be a real hoot at parties.

the brand should not be "Be better here" - if I want to be better, that's my choice, if I want to chill, that's ok, too. don't tell me what to do, in other words. the message should be about the skiing challenge of the mountain (Jay Peak does this well), it's premium positioning in the market (Stowe does this well), and appeal to families (Sunday River does this well).

The libertarian view on branding. "How dare you tell me what to do."

?

Didn't understand the question at hand.

Dbag, unfortunately. I hate “the bush” logo

Yikes.

Sugarslow

That is a new one.

 

[cdskier]

I understand about the buying water concern--Allyn's USED to have a cambro and plastic/paper cups. Do they not do that anymore? And this reviewer does not understand that "drilling a well" at that elevation would likely require a pretty deep well. It's not feasible.

I swear last time I was in there this past season they still had cups and free drinking water available...

What the.....?

q104.3 is a radio station in NYC. Maybe someone was multi-tasking or use speech to text while they filled out the survey?

Sorry that the term "Bush" offends you. However, you're the one who made it sexual.

Wtf? I'm surprised how many people are offended by that. I've used that term and never thought twice about it...

Two AZ posters. Identify yourselves!

I found my comments in the survey...but I don't think you quoted any of them lol

 

[cdskier]

I'm glad K sells a stand alone unlimited season pass still. I ski K/Pico and get a Belleayre pass or the 3 in 1.

That combo costs me 50% less than the Beast 365 and 3 in 1 last season. Never used the Ikon when I had it.

A K stand alone unlimited pass currently costs more than an Ikon pass (and I fully realize that Ikon is limited at K, but for purposes of a comparison to Sugarbush where Ikon gets you full access, it would be pointless to have a stand-alone SB pass at a similar price-point to the K stand-alone pass when Ikon is cheaper). So great that K still offers it, but there's no alternative if you want unlimited K access. So somewhat an apples to oranges comparison. Beast 365 is a completely different offering since it gives you access to golf, etc.

 

[foofy]

This person must be a real hoot at parties.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[thetrailboss]

The next installment of feedback about the "Sugarbush Brand":

Get rid of the “I heart big dumps”. Who approved a saying that has to do with going to the bathroom?! Immature and gross.

Positive I will mention that a couple of years ago there was an online/social media marketing campaign involving children beeped out as if they were swearing and also "69" and "420" were mentioned. I was disappointed in and embarrassed for Sugarbush with this campaign.

They do a nice job with their branding, but too much "woke" stuff. Focus on skiing, not pushing a message.

Those damn marketing kids. And didn't Trump kill Wokeness?

It’s good. People think of Sugarbush a place with real skiing, good terrain, and good amenities, without being full of assholes and New Yorkers like Stowe and Killington

Skiers mountain catering to serious skiers. Stowe has become mini aspen and killington has the aweful tristate crowd.

your brand does not match your actions. Everything is over expensive, the locals go ski at MRG, no night life, the only good apres vibe is at Mount Ellen, but unfortunately with steep prices. Stop targeting New Yorkers.

Very good in many categories - variety and quality of terrain, solid amenities, close-ish to Boston, far enough away from NY.

My guess is that these are definitely Red Sox and Pats fans.

Pretty good Nice alt to western. Skiing

Not quite sure what western skiing this person has done.....

It's a solid brand built up over time which connotes a pure Vermont experience but personally concerned that the built up value is being slightly eroded by lack of transparency and communication especially with some of its largest stakeholders. It has the potential to be the best of both worlds: maintaining its authentic feel but benefiting from the resource backing of its parent company but if is not careful it risks becoming more synonymous with some of the other large conglomerate resorts. Cookie cutter and overpriced for a subpar experience.

It's now very corporate and feels like it's trying to attract intermediate skiers with city money to spend, rather than people who are passionate about skiing. It no longer has the skiers' paradise vibe it had a decade ago, which Mammoth, Palisades, A-Basin, and Mad River have kept. Wunderbar, Castlerock, and North are the only places that show remnants of what Sugarbush's identity once was.

Great terrain but the resort is dated and tired. Food is not great - was better before Alterra took over and it’s a slap in the face for what they charge for it. Even with all that - people can look past it -but the cheaping out on salaries for staff in key roles results in shutdown lifts, needless over-crowding on limited trails and terrain degradation. At points it becomes a safety issue. Alterra needs to make up its mind on what it wants to do with this resort. It’s an iconic place on the Long Trail with a rich history. It’s a special place but needs to be run without the bias of Western resorts as “superior”. East Coast and Western skiing are different. Frankly, some of the resorts out West don’t look like a picnic either with the lift lines. It’s a great place that deserves far more respect from Alterra and a commitment to get the basics right - proper staffing, operational lifts, snowmaking/management.

It’s not about the brand… It’s about the people & families that continue to support the mountain & Valley because of how it has been ran and operated over many decades. SB attracts a certain crowd which is family centric, good values & morals who commit to driving an extra 1-2hrs to get out of the Stratton / Okemo, Killington, Loon crowd. The Brand recognition is fine and if anything should be understated. Ask around, it’s the crowd and families who ski SB religious that make up “The Brand”.

Every Sugarbush skier I know thinks things were better before Alterra, but at least it’s not Vail. Routine lift breakdowns have become a hallmark of the Sugarbush brand. Every year we pay a lot more and get a bit less. You can’t claim an independent, authentic mountain vibe when you are neither independent nor authentic. The place reeks of a big corporation putting the screws to their loyal customers.

Feedback that will be ignored because there are too many words for the marketing intern. These also exceed the 280 character limit.

It's unfortunately the same monopolizing and corporatizing that's taking over the ski industry and outpricing a lot of skiers so they can all cater to the ultra wealthy. Major bummer, because every resort that falls to Alterra eventually loses all culture and personality.

Any other thoughts, Bernie Sanders?

Could do better

A real burn.

Again, "The Bush" is a juvenile slogan.

Yes, we got the message as to how offended you are. Don't take it personally.

 

[thetrailboss]

WTH...some of these comments are bizarre. Upgrade Castlerock lift? Make access from the top of HG to CR easier? More padded seats on the chairs?

At least all the comments about North Ridge and Slide Brook are justified...

So I figured that there would be more crazy comments and feedback, but honestly now having skimmed over all of the comments, the wide majority are from people who invested some time and serious thought into providing thoughtful constructive feedback. It is not hard to see some consistent themes--lifts, snowmaking, off-season activities (or lack thereof), lack of local control, cost and value (especially of food and beverage), and multiple feedback about missing Win and local ownership. Alterra central would have to be really blind not to see the concerns. And honestly they echo what a lot of folks have said here. Very interesting. Thanks to the person who shared this. It is very eye opening to see what folks said.