The "Sugarbush Thread"

[fulgoreXC]

It might sit there until December 19th...but they're also spending the majority of the time from now until December 19th getting those trails covered so they are ready to go come December 19th. Even if they could hypothetically use ME's water at LP (which we know they can't), then that greatly jeopardizes the amount of terrain at ME that would be covered by their opening day. They use the ME system pretty much to full capacity during this pre-season time and often still have trails not yet covered when the mountain opens. Everyone would be pissed if they did that as well and then the comments would be "They had plenty of time, how can they not have all these trails ready yet?"

Don't forget the contractual obligations to GMVS. North is being skied before opening day. If base temps are not suitable, then it's up high lapping Elbow. and yes that also means downloading GMX.

 

[1dog]

Years ago Bush wasn't that far behind because they would rent portable air compressors for Nov-Jan to up their air capacity which is what is needed early season in marginal temps. This would help run many more guns and they would move around to get stuff open then come back to build up depths.

I recall those generators- haven't done that in years-either lack water resources or too high GMP prices, or both.

Spoiled bunch, we are.

 

[Plowboy]

At about 12:30 HG cam showed lift running, 2 patrollers skiing Ripcord and 2 patrollers headed down Paradise, 1 skier and 1 rider(w/boo in hand). Also tracks going down Downspout from the Bravo lift.

 

[Brendide]

At about 12:30 HG cam showed lift running, 2 patrollers skiing Ripcord and 2 patrollers headed down Paradise, 1 skier and 1 rider(w/boo in hand). Also tracks going down Downspout from the Bravo lift.

Looks like good turns!

 

[Hawk]

Air is not the issue. LP is sitting on more air than can be consumed. Even if adding portables was needed, can you imagine the uproar firing up those diesels and having tanker trucks day and night bringing in fuel? Killington has quietly moved away from that very scenario. You now rarely see the infamous "K-gun" on the socials. They are now using the exact same guns as SB.

The problem is and will always be WATER. Until they have a 60Mgal pond like Stowe or 120Mgal like Kmart it's going to be water.

I spent 15 years at Sunday River during the Les Otten hay day. We got a new area, lift and snowmaking every year for like 10 years. I worked there for a couple of winters and made snow. From my experiences, Sunday river has 10 compressors in the snowflake factory and another 10 or 15 places for rentals. Sugarbush has one compressor and a back up I believe. Pure and simple, if you want to make good snow (Light and Fluffy) you need air. This is Fact and non debatable. This whole company line that water is the issue is just plain fooey created by management. IF they had more air they would blow lighter snow that would cover better instead of the wet mud that comes out of those crappy guns they bought. Do you realize that Win originally got those low E guns used because someone else bought them and abandoned the technology. That is what i was told by someone that used to operate the system. Just look at how fast Killington and Stowe operate on a trail from start to finish. 2 days and they can ski. Did you ever wonder why? Air pressure! Sugarbush takes a week just to open one trail and it is always a sloppy mess withrock hard frozen whales. There was plenty of water in the river so how can that be the limiting factor? Also don't forget that the pipes are leaking with holes so they have pressure loss. All the reason to have more air capacity until the leaks are fixed.

 

[HowieT2]

To piggyback onto the wise words from @MrGlen. This time of year, from what I have gathered, the main complaints are snowmaking, lack thereof or not in the right location. Then as the season goes along it's "fix the lifts", and "the snowmaking surface is too icy, the grooming sucks". What you're really seeing is deferred maintenance. Win was great but there was a limit to his resources. During his time EBITDA peaked around $7M. Within a few years after Alterra bought him out the EBITDA rose to $17M+. During that time investments totaled well over 10M for snowmaking and another 5M+ for HG lift. That's a huge % of investment. To catch up it's going to be many millions more. A Northridge replacement is rumored to be in excess of 12M. Creating a more robust water supply for LP for snowmaking would be 30+. Bottom line we will never be lacking for something to complain about. I only wish this would be better communicated.

Regarding the Slide Brook snowmaking by-pass... Um, no. By percentage of stored water to acres covered North is by far in worse shape than South. @cdskier is correct, Ellen is grandfathered in under the 1986 snowmaking withdrawal rules. Any expansion whatsoever would trigger regulatory review which would result in new permit conditions. Effectively eliminating the existing sources. That's a no-go, period.

I get wanting to have the mountain to yourself and short lines at any lift you choose at anytime. But the only way to modernize the infrastructure is through the IKON pass. More visits, more EBITDA, more capital investment.

You seem to have some knowledge about the financials. The numbers are ballpark what I would have guessed except for the expanded snowmaking which I assume refers to a new pond by the golf course. Is that really 30M dollars? I mean digging a pond even with blasting rock I understand is expensive but 30m? that seems like a lot.

 

[Hawk]

I'll bet you a $18 Rumbles Cocktail that they are not going to be even close by Saturday morning.

It will force them to stay closed until Thanksgiving or open with Ellen.

Choices

fulgorexc I guess I owe you a drink. I pay my debts. We can discuss snowmaking philosophy. Let me know.

 

[Newpylong]

I spent 15 years at Sunday River during the Les Otten hay day. We got a new area, lift and snowmaking every year for like 10 years. I worked there for a couple of winters and made snow. From my experiences, Sunday river has 10 compressors in the snowflake factory and another 10 or 15 places for rentals. Sugarbush has one compressor and a back up I believe. Pure and simple, if you want to make good snow (Light and Fluffy) you need air. This is Fact and non debatable. This whole company line that water is the issue is just plain fooey created by management. IF they had more air they would blow lighter snow that would cover better instead of the wet mud that comes out of those crappy guns they bought. Do you realize that Win originally got those low E guns used because someone else bought them and abandoned the technology. That is what i was told by someone that used to operate the system. Just look at how fast Killington and Stowe operate on a trail from start to finish. 2 days and they can ski. Did you ever wonder why? Air pressure! Sugarbush takes a week just to open one trail and it is always a sloppy mess withrock hard frozen whales. There was plenty of water in the river so how can that be the limiting factor? Also don't forget that the pipes are leaking with holes so they have pressure loss. All the reason to have more air capacity until the leaks are fixed.

Did they get rid of compressors recently? CB-1 used to have 5 rental diesels which were eventually replaced by 3 Centacs (electric), one of which was replaced with a newer VFD unit in 2017. Sunday River had all those compressors when you were there because all they owned were SR7s. They take 300-400 CFM each. These are the same guns Sugabush (as an ASC mountain) also used to use back in the day. All everyone ran back then was big air. The landscape has changed, and those days aren't going to come back. You're simply not going to see Low-E make pixie dust unless they are really dried out, certainly not when building base. Yes the Snow Logics Win bought are absolute garbage (the company is practically out of business now) but they have lots of other equipment too.

I honestly can't say for certain what the issues are up there as I don't live there anymore and they don't use us to do work for them, but I would willing to bet they are not equipment related, nor water or air. All I see is underutilization. It could come down to management decisions and/or lack of qualified operators. They are sitting on enough water and air capacity, when temps allow, to run nearly one T2B route off Gadd and another off Gatehouse simultaneously.

 

[cdskier]

Yes the Snow Logics Win bought are absolute garbage (the company is practically out of business now) but they have lots of other equipment too.

Not that I advocate for someone going out of business, but I always hated those guns and thought the HKDs made far better snow so I'm really not one bit upset to hear that.

They are sitting on enough water and air capacity, when temps allow, to run one T2B route off Gadd and one off Gatehouse simultaneously.

Interesting...I feel like we've repeatedly been told recently by current/former employees that isn't the case. If they're not running at max capacity when conditions allow, that's a rather bizarre decision. I don't think I've ever seen 2 T2B routes simultaneously running.

 

[Newpylong]

I shouldn't have said Gadd, but there is capacity (both air and water) to run something the length of Snowball > SF and something off Gatehouse at once. That's assuming the dam is inflated and being refilled otherwise they can only run for 3 days until they're done

 

[HowieT2]

I spent 15 years at Sunday River during the Les Otten hay day. We got a new area, lift and snowmaking every year for like 10 years. I worked there for a couple of winters and made snow. From my experiences, Sunday river has 10 compressors in the snowflake factory and another 10 or 15 places for rentals. Sugarbush has one compressor and a back up I believe. Pure and simple, if you want to make good snow (Light and Fluffy) you need air. This is Fact and non debatable. This whole company line that water is the issue is just plain fooey created by management. IF they had more air they would blow lighter snow that would cover better instead of the wet mud that comes out of those crappy guns they bought. Do you realize that Win originally got those low E guns used because someone else bought them and abandoned the technology. That is what i was told by someone that used to operate the system. Just look at how fast Killington and Stowe operate on a trail from start to finish. 2 days and they can ski. Did you ever wonder why? Air pressure! Sugarbush takes a week just to open one trail and it is always a sloppy mess withrock hard frozen whales. There was plenty of water in the river so how can that be the limiting factor? Also don't forget that the pipes are leaking with holes so they have pressure loss. All the reason to have more air capacity until the leaks are fixed.

Doesn't everyone use low E guns nowadays? No offense Hawk, but its 2025. You're days making snow at SR had to have been like 30+ years ago.
I never understood why sugarbush seems to be the only place not to have those fan guns

 

[shadyjay]

I don't think the air is the problem as much as it used to be, especially with the low E guns. There's really only a handful of trails where permanently-mounted fan guns would work (SB->Fling, Racer's, Pushover, Easy Rider, Downspout possibly), but they come with the added expense of having to run power up all of those trails. Given they have their own compressors, they'd only require water. Now installing click hydrants with HKD towers on those same trails, you make your light-up a lot easier (providing you're not spending 2 12-hour shifts digging out the hydrants... been there, done that - got the medal).

When I first started snowmaking, we'd run out of air first before maxing out on water, especially early season in marginal temps. Then the low E guns (the Snow Logics) came out and use very little air, allowing more guns to be operated. But because they use less air, they require a lot more attention and can't be tossed around like the old Ratniks. Yanking a blue out of a snowbank was a lot easier than a Logic!

Then there were the nights we ran the old guns just to use up the extra air. They made really good snow on those bitter cold nights.

I still wonder how it seems like some resorts seem to open a couple trails after just a couple days, when it took us nearly a week to open a similar trail. Maybe its our terrain and what we had to cover. Or maybe it was just their system being more efficient and having more capacity than ours did.

Regarding water, I believe there was a plan many moons ago to construct a pond up by the Bundy. The amount of piping required, not to mention the pumping system for such a project probably drove its costs through the roof, as you'd have to come down from the Bundy down a steep hill to Rt 100, then down Rt 100 to the access road, and then 3 miles up just to get to CB1.

Its a far cry from when SB's only water source was the Clay Brook, that little stream that runs near the base of Bravo.

And now we wait for that one big storm that puts the snowmaking debate to sleep for the next 5 months.

 

[Brendide]

SB socials just updated that they'll open T2B.

 

[mikec142]

Paradise, Ripcord, Spillsville, Organgrinder, Domino, and Upper Birdland. That's a pretty good addition.

 

[Brendide]

Paradise, Ripcord, Spillsville, Organgrinder, Domino, and Upper Birdland. That's a pretty good addition.

I wonder how much of the lower mountain we'll get if Domino is good to go.

 

[cdskier]

Paradise, Ripcord, Spillsville, Organgrinder, Domino, and Upper Birdland. That's a pretty good addition.

And all those trails will be skied off and down to rocks by noon

I shouldn't have said Gadd, but there is capacity (both air and water) to run something the length of Snowball > SF and something off Gatehouse at once. That's assuming the dam is inflated and being refilled otherwise they can only run for 3 days until they're done

Ok...so in that case they have done things like that a bunch of times. There's plenty of times they're making snow on GH plus other routes on Gadd. When you said T2B, I was thinking more like Jester/DS/Lower DS/Gondo or CR plus a route on GH which I've never seen done. Not even sure I've seen a full T2B route done at once from the LP summit to base.