Hart F17 listed on al's ski barn web site

[Trekchick]

Deneen could crush me using Atomic GS skis. The argument they're good for top level bump skiers doesn't really hold for me. I need a ski that's good for me.

And when I can get three and half pairs of Cabrawlers for one pair of F17s, the durability argument doesn't hold up either.

Just don't tell the rep I try to demo them from that I think that way, though...

Crap. I think he heard me...

From someone who's not spectacular in the bumps, the draw for me is that it was evident that it made my bump skiing easier, (after being beat up at the end of a day) yet is substantial enough to ski on alternate terrain, if you don't want to spend the whole day in the bumps, and don't have the convenience of easily changing out your skis.

Much more versatile than I would have imagined.

 

[jack97]

Deneen has good technique, I want to strip it off of youtube and study it some more.

Having said that, the F17 isn't making him keep his hip in position, rolling his knees with the weigth shift, that c twist with the upper torso and so on. That takes years of hard work and it definitely shows. You can't buy a turn like that, you have to earn it.

 

[Philpug]

Deneen could crush me using Atomic GS skis. The argument they're good for top level bump skiers doesn't really hold for me. I need a ski that's good for me.

Talk to Richie Morgan from Stratton, Bob Barnes from Epic, Nate Preston and Rob Day from Waterville Valley, Matt Gnuza, Deb Newsome, Justin Fiskov from Kton....This ski will help you get better as a bump skier. This is a ski to ski bumps, nut survive them.

And when I can get three and half pairs of Cabrawlers for one pair of F17s, the durability argument doesn't hold up either.

You can get three and a half Ford Mustangs for the price of a BMW M3 too

Just don't tell the rep I try to demo them from that I think that way, though...

Crap. I think he heard me...

You are welcome to demo them .

 

[jack97]

From someone who's not spectacular in the bumps, the draw for me is that it was evident that it made my bump skiing easier, (after being beat up at the end of a day) yet is substantial enough to ski on alternate terrain, if you don't want to spend the whole day in the bumps, and don't have the convenience of easily changing out your skis.

Much more versatile than I would have imagined.

Hey Tchick, I don't mean to be messing with you but thats the problem, the F17 may be to easy to turn. When I was getting schooled by Evan up at Whaleback, he was carving out turns forward and backwards and ripping down a steep mogul course he rutted himself. The guy was on Armada twin tips, he was telling me stories about how Donna Weinbretch can ski on any thing and make it work. Damn....he was even doing those same drills Deneen was doing (skiing on one leg) with his Armadas. My point is, it takes technique, it's not the ski.

 

[Trekchick]

You are absolutely right, you/I can't buy a turn, or a zipper line for that matter. Patrick is an amazing bumper, as is Michelle Roark.

Since I'm not a great mogul skier, but a hack and an aspiring bumper, I took my demo time as a sign of decent demo from someone who can entertain the properties of a ski and write about it. After skiing, while talking with Patrick and Michelle, it was interesting to hear Michelle say, she'd been on an abundance of mogul skis(duh) and the F17 blew all others away, hands down.
Can't buy a turn(or zipperline) but she can certainly distinguish the difference between a good mogul ski and a great mogul ski.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy the F17, but I think you're cheating yourself if you dismiss it and dont' seize an opportunity to demo them.

 

[mondeo]

You can get three and a half Ford Mustangs for the price of a BMW M3 too

Picked the wrong guy to use a car analogy with...

I'll stick with my STI, which'll hang with a M3 for $20K+ less. :razz:

Mustang vs. M3 is like comparing cheapo race GS skis to premium All-mountain skis. You would have been much better making the comparison of Mazda Miata vs. Lotus Elise.

 

[Philpug]

Picked the wrong guy to use a car analogy with...

I'll stick with my STI, which'll hang with a M3 for $20K+ less. :razz:

Mustang vs. M3 is like comparing cheapo race GS skis to premium All-mountain skis. You would have been much better making the comparison of Mazda Miata vs. Lotus Elise.

I know a few things about cars myself and your example is along the same lines. The reason I chose the M3, is because the BMW and these skis are on par on build quality. I am a Subie guy through and through (I have owned about 15 of them), as good as the STi is..it is not the car the M3 is.

 

[jack97]

I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy the F17, but I think you're cheating yourself if you dismiss it and dont' seize an opportunity to demo them.

IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach.


After stripping off the vid, I slowed it down on windows media player. Deneen is getting caught a little flat footed. He's not getting enuf shin pressure, sometimes he is collapsing at the waist when he absorbs the bumps, one can see that on the side view. Its hard to see on the vid since it was shot slanted but I heard the mtn hood course is flat, so its hard to get that shin pressure. Or..... it could be the ski allowing him to turn with less shin pressure... hard to say but I'm sure we can voice more biases.

 

[Trekchick]

I am sorry that you've taken my comments so personally, in the interest of sharing the enthusiasm for a pair of skis I thoroughly enjoyed and will have in my quiver.
You'll be happy to know that I am also spending some money on a mogul camp.



I'm truly stumped at the nitpicking where Patricks video is concerned. I posted it more for Mogul stoke than anything. He is after all, 2008 Rookie of the year, 2008 US Freestyle Skier of the year, being coached by the best, for the best. I guess instead of picking apart the skiing, I was thinking, Man that kid rips!!!

 

[Greg]

Deneen has a real "turny" style and perhaps the more defined sidecut of the F17 compliments that. Not saying I will ever be at that level, but I have a more turny style in the bumps too so I really want to get my hands on the F17.

You can't buy a turn like that, you have to earn it.

Word. Skiing bumps well probably takes more discipline than just about any other form of skiing.

IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach.

Tough to argue with that. I'm a self taught bumper but plan to do a camp this season. I think I'm at the point where I really could benefit from some direct coaching.

 

[jack97]

I am sorry that you've taken my comments so personally, in the interest of sharing the enthusiasm for a pair of skis I thoroughly enjoyed and will have in my quiver.
You'll be happy to know that I am also spending some money on a mogul camp.



I'm truly stumped at the nitpicking where Patricks video is concerned. I posted it more for Mogul stoke than anything. He is after all, 2008 Rookie of the year, 2008 US Freestyle Skier of the year, being coached by the best, for the best. I guess instead of picking apart the skiing, I was thinking, Man that kid rips!!!

BTW, jack, are you a mogul coach or competitor? I'd love to see some vid of you. Always love ski stoke!

Not taking it personally, analogous to your passion for skis, I have for mogul skiing. I love breaking down film and watching techniques. Don't get me wrong, Deneen is good but he needs to improve, I think he and his coaches know that. When Jon Mosely had all those US titles under his belt, he got smoked when he tried to take it to the next level, meaning the world cup tour. That setback drove him to work even harder.

And no, I'm not a coach nor a competitor, I would give up parts of my anatomy to ski like Deneen.

 

[deadheadskier]

I look at the $900 price tag as none other than demographic targeting

I bought a pair of brand new 06 Rossi Bandit BX's this spring for $200 delivered. I bought these as my 'bump' ski as the 06' B2's I bought at the beginning of the season ($335 new with new bindings, mounted and delivered) left just a tad to be desired in the bump arena. The BX's are great. I'm guessing the F17 I'd probably enjoy more. That said, I look at $900 as a very solid pair of skis and a season's worth of lift ticket expenses for me. I haven't spent over $450 for a pair of skis mounted in 15 years and I've always bought new skis, they just happen to be from a couple seasons back.

In another arena in life, I recently went into a local kitchen shop as I have a cabinet with a blind corner that I'd like to install a drawer pull out apparatus to make the space more usable that is difficult to reach by hand. The lady at the store tried to sell me on this $943 stainless shelving unit for the space. That's right, $943. Granted it was a pretty sweet system, but a simple half moon pull out deal from Home Depot will cost $150. Guess which one I'm going with?

Hart has their mind on a certain demographic with their $1100 bump skis. If they can get it, good for them.....that's capitalism. Maybe I'll get lucky three years from now and find a pair of 175's in a warehouse for $300.

 

[Philpug]

IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach.

As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.

 

[deadheadskier]

As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.

Fair enough.....

However, in life, I've always felt it's the wizard not the wand.....

....not discounting the benefits of a good wand; proper equipment helps in all aspects of life (get your head of the gutter trekchick ) . Just sayin' that statement is kinda bold. I personally would have serious reservations about how much better a bump skier I'd be skiing the $1100 new Harts over the $200 BX's I purchased for skiing bumps. The returns for me would be diminished and doubtfully worth the extra $900 especially given my personal financial constraints.

 

[jack97]

As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.

The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.

 

[jack97]

Hart has their mind on a certain demographic with their $1100 bump skis. If they can get it, good for them.....that's capitalism.

Yep, that is capitalism! My concern is how Hart would effect tier pricing. 1100 mrsp for a ski alone, if successful, the high volume guys like K2, volkl, dynastar(?) and rossignol may decide to increase their msrp.

 

[Philpug]

The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.

I will also add, most of these coaches sought us out, not the other way around.

 

[jack97]

The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.

I will also add, most of these coaches sought us out, not the other way around.

Yep, that doesn' t surpise me, not enuf mogul sponsors in this game. Coaches are looking for a soft ski with at most a gs cut (circa 2000), ranging from 140 cm to 160 cm.... pickings are slim.

 

[Philpug]

Yep, that doesn' t surpise me, not enuf mogul sponsors in this game. Coaches are looking for a soft ski with at most a gs cut (circa 2000), ranging from 140 cm to 160 cm.... pickings are slim.

Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering 125, 135 and 145 lengths too!

 

[jack97]

Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering 125, 135 and 145 lengths too!

Innovative move by Hart, sell high end skis though the kids. To make the freestyle team and to place in competitions, little Johnny or Jane has to have the right ski. Puts pressure on mommy and daddy to deliver the goods else they feel guilty. Very smart, analogues to the Happy Meals McD started long ago.