The Desovichs' Weinbrechts,

[2knees]

Aldigheris' and Martins' were gone well before powdr ever came into play.

Why has killington fallen off the national map?

 

[deadheadskier]

must have something to do with town trying to secede to NH

 

[drjeff]

Look at what's become of the BMMC and the simple fact that K's REAL bump season is significantly shorter than it used to be nowadays. :idea:

 

[Rambo]

For decades Killington was famous for being the 1st to open and the last to close in the east. Many years they would open mid-October and close mid-May or even longer. Thats a 7 month season year in and year out. It was a big blunder last year to suddenly close mid-April and lose their status as having the longest seaons. I feel that could be 1 reason they lost their national status.

 

[drjeff]

For decades Killington was famous for being the 1st to open and the last to close in the east. Many years they would open mid-October and close mid-May or even longer. Thats a 7 month season year in and year out. It was a big blunder last year to suddenly close mid-April and lose their status as having the longest seaons. I feel that could be 1 reason they lost their national status.

Definately a factor. Heck, 10 years ago, you could goto K from basically mid-April until June on any given day and usually see a few members of the US Mogul Team ripping down Outer Limits until the end of April and then Superstar until it melted out. Weinbrechts, Desovich, Martin, Dvybig.

K would predictably give the bumpers a solid 8 weeks of lift served bumps to train on post world cup/nationals, and the best flocked there for it.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think even if Killington was to have the super long seasons of years ago, they'd still be off the 'national' map for three reasons.

A. The birth and rise of park / new school skiing

The park is what's 'sexy' now and all you see on TV if you see skiing at all. It has an urban sort of hip hop appeal ala skate boarding to it and a resort doesn't have to be the biggest place around to get on the national radar for that style of skiing.

B. Tree skiing / Back Country

In the east, this type of terrain was relatively unknown by anyone skiing outside of the northern greens until really the past decade. Now everywhere has trees on the map. There are plenty of areas North of Killington that simply have better options for this than K.

C. Improvements at other NE areas.

Killington's size and infrastructure differential / advantage used to be HUGE back in the day. Now, not nearly so much with how much other areas have grown and modernized their facilities to have as good or better lifts, snowmaking, lodges etc.

I think Killington could do a lot better than what it is doing now, but I don't ever see it being considered the consensus number one area in the east like it was from the early 80's through the mid 90's. That's even with a Pico interconnect and base village. The competition has improved too much for that to happen.

 

[mondeo]

For decades Killington was famous for being the 1st to open and the last to close in the east. Many years they would open mid-October and close mid-May or even longer. Thats a 7 month season year in and year out. It was a big blunder last year to suddenly close mid-April and lose their status as having the longest seaons. I feel that could be 1 reason they lost their national status.

That only happened a couple years ago, though. Losing national status at this point is a 15-20 year process with all the development programs.

If anything, it's probably just greater parity among different programs. I'm not that big into Killington's history, but my understanding is that with opening up Bear Mountain as a freestyle mountain, they lead the industry in that direction. Other mountains have simply caught up. It's not like Killington is off the map; Mike Morse won Nationals last year and Travis Mayer went through KMS for a year before heading west. If you look at the US National team roster, there is a great variety of hometowns spread through the NE and the west.

 

[mondeo]

C. Improvements at other NE areas.

Killington's size and infrastructure differential / advantage used to be HUGE back in the day. Now, not nearly so much with how much other areas have grown and modernized their facilities to have as good or better lifts, snowmaking, lodges etc.

I think Killington could do a lot better than what it is doing now, but I don't ever see it being considered the consensus number one area in the east like it was from the early 80's through the mid 90's. That's even with a Pico interconnect and base village. The competition has improved too much for that to happen.

The only way any resort is going to make themselves into a clear cut leader in the east is to make a truly dedicated effort to bumps. Even the effort at Mt. Ellen this year I don't see as being enough. You need a long season, a public course or two, and a bunch of natural runs ranging in difficulty. If Killington wanted to, they could do it on Bear again. Short seeded section on the bottom of O.L., keep Wildfire bumped consistently, and seed the flat upper part of Bear Claw. There are other places they could do it, but the terrain at Bear provides for a nice progression of beginner bumps to the good stuff on O.L., and gives those getting into it on Bear Claw some good stoke by watching the top notch guys fly down O.L.

The problem is, the money isn't in it for them. Hopefully bump skiing will come full circle again sometime. With their altitude, decent snowfall, terrain, and location, they're a natural candidate for being a leader on the bump skiing scene. Just need the bump skiing scene to come back.

And bring back the party for BMMC. That's key.

 

[Geoff]

The only way any resort is going to make themselves into a clear cut leader in the east is to make a truly dedicated effort to bumps.

Killington was the clear #1 in the east when Preston Smith unloaded his empire onto Les Otten for 2x what it was worth. Killington did something to the resort every year. New lifts. Expanded terrain. Base lodge additions. Les Otten dumped significant cash into Killington in the late 1990's with the K1 gondola, the Rams Head high speed lift, and the Needles Eye high speed lift. ASC then got into financial trouble and everything ground to a halt for a decade. Over the last 10 years, Killington went from #1 in the east to just about invisible.

Bumps alone won't do it. The Killington brand has always been all about superlatives. ASC really tarnished the brand and POWDR completely destroyed it. It needs to have the biggest and best terrain park. It needs to have the best bump skiing. It needs to have the most acres of tree skiing. It needs to have the best intermediate terrain. It needs to have the best family programs. It absolutely needs to throw the best spring parties in April and May.

I figure it will take at least a decade of chipping away at that 10 years of neglect to restore the resort. New base lodges. Intermediate terrain that can only be added by doing the Pico interconnect. Way more on-the-map tree skiing than they have now. A much better customer experience for families than the disaster today at Snowshed and Rams Head during holiday periods. Given that POWDR has killed the vibe and driven a lot of the business away, it's not clear that the resort will generate the operating profit to make any of this happen. Profit from real estate sales certainly doesn't look likely in the face of a collapse of the local real estate market. It may very well take another wave of ownership beyond the Texas money guys and the Park City operations guys to make a go of it.

 

[deadheadskier]

The only way any resort is going to make themselves into a clear cut leader in the east is to make a truly dedicated effort to bumps. Even the effort at Mt. Ellen this year I don't see as being enough. You need a long season, a public course or two, and a bunch of natural runs ranging in difficulty. If Killington wanted to, they could do it on Bear again. Short seeded section on the bottom of O.L., keep Wildfire bumped consistently, and seed the flat upper part of Bear Claw. There are other places they could do it, but the terrain at Bear provides for a nice progression of beginner bumps to the good stuff on O.L., and gives those getting into it on Bear Claw some good stoke by watching the top notch guys fly down O.L.

The problem is, the money isn't in it for them. Hopefully bump skiing will come full circle again sometime. With their altitude, decent snowfall, terrain, and location, they're a natural candidate for being a leader on the bump skiing scene. Just need the bump skiing scene to come back.

And bring back the party for BMMC. That's key.

Dude

A. Did you ski Sugarbush this year, or have you skied there ever? Outside of the public course part of your argument, the bumps at Sugarbush this year and really for the past ten have been better than what Killington even offered during their hey dey, during which I got a spring pass many of the years.

B. You have defined what would be the best for what YOU want. Bumps were not what made Killington the year in and out consensus #1 in the past. It was as Geoff said, the superlatives, which don't get me wrong, bumps were a part of, but not the whole story.

C. Bear Mountain alone can't touch Sugarbush for the type of skiing that YOU want, heck the entirety of Killington couldn't touch Sugarbush. The only advantage Killington has over Sugarbush for the type of skiing YOU want is location / proximity to metro areas and that's it.

 

[deadheadskier]

Bumps alone won't do it. The Killington brand has always been all about superlatives. ASC really tarnished the brand and POWDR completely destroyed it. .

Agreed 100%

It needs to have the biggest and best terrain park. .

They definitely could have this if they wanted it.

It needs to have the best bump skiing.

Debatable whether this could happen. If the did all the things that mondeo says, I'd MAYBE consider conceding a tie with Sugarbush. There's nothing at Killington that even remotely touches Castlerock, but they do have an acreage advantage.

It needs to have the most acres of tree skiing.

They definitely could have the most on map trees if they wanted to, however I don't see them ever competing with Stowe for having the best trees in the east overall. Stowe's off map options are so vast and with the often extra 100 inches a season, it would be tough for Killington or anywhere else to compete.

It needs to have the best intermediate terrain.

I don't see this as ever being the case. I think even with the Pico interconnect that Okemo and Sunday River will still have the best intermediate skiing in the east. Those mountains simply have a better pitch and more acreage of it than Killington would have even with the interconnect.

If you want to talk advanced intermediate / racing terrain, I don't see Killington ever touching Stowe. It simply doesn't have nearly 2000 feet of consistent vertical like Stowe has off both the Quad and Gondola sides.

It needs to have the best family programs.

Certainly doable at any major area.

It absolutely needs to throw the best spring parties in April and May.

Absolutely doable with the night life the mountain offers and it's proximity to major metro areas.

I figure it will take at least a decade of chipping away at that 10 years of neglect to restore the resort. New base lodges. Intermediate terrain that can only be added by doing the Pico interconnect. Way more on-the-map tree skiing than they have now. A much better customer experience for families than the disaster today at Snowshed and Rams Head during holiday periods. .

Agreed on this one and that if they did all this it would find itself perhaps being the consensus number 1 area again in the east. However, I stand by my statement that it wouldn't be as dominant as it once was as other areas have come so far in the past twenty years.

 

[2knees]

I understand what you guys are saying but was more talking about the fact that the cream of the crop in bump skiing used to regularly come out of killington but that dried up while the season length, bmmc and such were still pretty much intact.

I guess there is no way you'll see that kind of thing happen the way things are now. although iceman may be the next great one. :razz:

then again, i dont know much about todays competitive mogul scene, certainly dont follow it like it did in the 80's so i could be way off base.

 

[mondeo]

Dude

A. Did you ski Sugarbush this year, or have you skied there ever? Outside of the public course part of your argument, the bumps at Sugarbush this year and really for the past ten have been better than what Killington even offered during their hey dey, during which I got a spring pass many of the years.

It's #1 on my list of places to hit, I'll be there May 3rd. I'm open to being totally off in my assessment of this. But going off of what I hear, they're certainly the preferred place in the east for bumps, but not the standout #1 for bumps, where ALL the big time bump skiers go.

B. You have defined what would be the best for what YOU want. Bumps were not what made Killington the year in and out consensus #1 in the past. It was as Geoff said, the superlatives, which don't get me wrong, bumps were a part of, but not the whole story.

From the people 2knees listed, I was taking the question to be, "why isn't Killington the big time place for moguls anymore?" Certainly bumps are about the last thing on the list for getting the overall #1 back at this point.

I don't see anyone taking back a clear cut #1 position any time soon, there's simply too many players on the field targeting a specific portion of the market. I don't see anyone taking over from Mt. Snow with terrain parks, they've got the location and dedication to it. Stratton, Okemo, and Sunday River get the nod for cruisers. Sugarbush is in the lead for bumps. With other places focusing their resources on certain products, in order to have superlatives everywhere you have to beat out their combined resources. You need to have an all-park mountain. You need to have an all-bump mountain. Tons of cruisers, groomed impeccibly. Make tons of snow. Have great lodges. Great steeps and trees. Winding, narrow New England trails and wide straight boulevards. It's just not financially viable anymore to go after all the superlatives; you either have to try to do everything ok, or focus on one area and let the rest drop off.

 

[2knees]

It's #1 on my list of places to hit, I'll be there May 3rd. I'm open to being totally off in my assessment of this. But going off of what I hear, they're certainly the preferred place in the east for bumps, but not the standout #1 for bumps, where ALL the big time bump skiers go.

cool that you'll hit in on closing day (most likely) but that isnt gonna give you a feel for the way it really is. BMM can extoll on the virtues of Mt. Ellen, but until you've skied castlerock in all its glory, you wont get a total feel for the the sheer amount of bump runs sugarbush has. Also the mall, paradise, ripcord, spillsville, twist, lower birdland, etc.

they just have an intense array of choices not seen at many areas. MRG being one exception.

 

[SkiDork]

This is what I see lately: The biggest competitive mogul scene is at K. K pretty much drives the easternfreestyle.org comps, having the most number and organizing the season (due to a few hard workers). So they're _trying_ to carry the flag. KMS is pretty much considered the most desirable ski academy in the east for freestyle.

Now, the competitive freestyle climate has changed from the early days. It was a lot more informal back in the Desovich and Weinbrecht days. Some would complain that its too restrictive these days, and mere mortals aren't even allowed to use the courses. That I tend to agree with, and the regular joe mogul scene certainly does not center at K any more. This is unfortunate.

BTW, Iceman had an incredible 3 days of comps, stepping up to the A level. He finished middle of the pack both single days (Fri and Sat) and had an awesome surprise dual comp yesterday. It was cold, icy and snowing pretty hard. He went up against Emerson in the 1st round (another 11 year old A move up) who generally beats him. But yesterday, most likely due to the conditions Iceman won out and got a 2nd round. He went up against an older (15 or 16 year old) more experienced A competitor in the 2nd round, and was actually pulling ahead of him in the middle section to the amazement of almost all watching. Unfortunately he was going soooo fast, and caught an edge just prior to the 2nd kicker, that he bailed on the kicker and went around it, thereby losing. Most agreed it was a very wise decision, rather than risk getting hurt. I'm very proud of him, and look forward to a fun season next year.

Oh, I attibute his winning on the 1st round somewhat to his experience at the Sundown Bump or Bust where he got his very 1st intro to duals. He knew what to expect because of it.

 

[Greg]

Whether it's no longer a WC mogul breeding ground or not, overall recreational bumping doesn't seem as popular as it once was. It seems to me that Killington sorta just followed along with most other ski areas with intensive grooming the past 10 years or so. Most advanced level skiers looking for challenge now head off to the trees. Freestyle nowadays = park. Bumps just don't have the same allure they once had for some reason. That may be due to advances in ski technology which allows folks to climb the learning curve quicker, but as you know, you can't fake it in the bumps. In a way that probably makes mogul skiing even more frustrating to people first trying it, especially those who thought they were already advanced skiers since they can link decent turns on a groomed double black. Still, I think there's a shift happening and hopefully bump skiing will come back into prominence. The result will probably be more little Icemans coming out of the Northeast.

 

[Greg]

Oh and BTW, triple twisters still rule.

 

[mondeo]

cool that you'll hit in on closing day (most likely) but that isnt gonna give you a feel for the way it really is. BMM can extoll on the virtues of Mt. Ellen, but until you've skied castlerock in all its glory, you wont get a total feel for the the sheer amount of bump runs sugarbush has. Also the mall, paradise, ripcord, spillsville, twist, lower birdland, etc.

they just have an intense array of choices not seen at many areas. MRG being one exception.

Totally agree with you. Definitely want to hit the place up next year mid-winter, closing day will just be a sneak preview.

Unless conditions suck, my blackout days at Killington next year are going to be spent either doing backcountry or visiting places I haven't been yet.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I sort of see the lack of mogul skiers as the core skiing group who loved the bumps in the 70s and 80s..the baby boomers are now old and gray and prefer to ski groomers and their kids..the young jibhonks like the rails and booters..

 

[Geoff]

I understand what you guys are saying but was more talking about the fact that the cream of the crop in bump skiing used to regularly come out of killington but that dried up while the season length, bmmc and such were still pretty much intact.

I guess there is no way you'll see that kind of thing happen the way things are now. although iceman may be the next great one. :razz:

then again, i dont know much about todays competitive mogul scene, certainly dont follow it like it did in the 80's so i could be way off base.

The difference between bump skiing in the 1980's and bump skiing today is that in the 1980's, people just camped out on Outer Limits and taught each other. I was there. It was fun to watch. Today, mogul skiing is a very structured discipline just like ski racing has been forever. The quality of bump skiing today at Killington is far better than back then but the best kids are in the Mountain School and are usually invisible on weekends since they're traveling to events elsewhere. Anybody in the Killington programs who is any good isn't allowed to compete in the BMMC and their training area is no longer Outer Limits in full view of everybody. Instead, the best bumpers train on a roped off slope just like the racers.

With snowboards, twin tip park rats, and aging boomers, moguls don't sell an awful lot of day tickets. It's different times and Killington has done the obvious thing. The Stash for the park rats. 50% grooming on OL for the majority of their customer base. Short shaped skis make for really crappy moguls. Snowboards create wall bumps. On most of the mountain, things would get pretty unskiable if it weren't knocked flat periodically. The best bump course used by the bumpers in the structured programs has a rope across it so the hacks (like me) don't destroy it. If you want better quality natural bumps, you need to be at a hill where people aren't on short shaped skis and snowboards. Hint: It's an hour north of Killington and it has a single chair.