footbeds and bootfitters

[skizoo]

Hi guys

Had a quick question. Not sure this is in the right place

I have some issues with boots. I have extreamly wide and flat feet. Currently im rocking technica vento 80's with down unders in them
Last year was brutal, Everyday i could barely walk in my boots.
I had a guy at the ski market " bootfitter" ( yea right) grind some of the spots out to help with limited succes.
This year a guy recomended i try A lines instead of down unders or super feet. Can any one give me some input if they have used either and also. I would like to pay a vist to a REAL bootfitter around the boston area. Will drive whereever but the closer the better to see the real deal

Thanks for any input

You need to get with a highly skilled bootfitter who can measure all parts your your lower anatomy from the knee down.. Just assuming that changing footbeds will solve your problem is a huge mistake.

The last of a boot is just 1 aspect of a correct fit, a skilled bootfitter needs to know a lot more than just the length and width of your feet. The first and most important thing is to get a boot that is suited to your anatomy.. IE; do you have low calves, or high calves.. etc.. A skilled bootfitter should spend 30-60 minutes just taking measurements of key areas of your feet and lower legs.. most don't, most won't spend 5 minutes..

The last of a boot is more than just where it fits around your foot proper.. your entire lower anatomy is vitally important to getting a correct fit in your boot, then and only then can you get the footbed to correctly interact. And if a footbed is needed, make make sure you avoid rigid footboods, It's hard to believe some shops are still putting rigid footbeds in boots.. but they are..

Footbeds have a huge profit margin % wise, and they are pushed heavily by a lot of shops.. in many cases they are needed, but there are also many cases where they are not.. They are not the cure all for everything that ails you, but often that is how they are presented... 'Oh your feet hurt?, you just need footbeds.' blah blah blah.." that's an uninformed answer from an amateur bootfitter.

If a bootfitter tells you you need footbeds when all you have done is put on a pair of boots for a few minutes, move on, that bootfitter is not going to fit you correctly.. unless they get really lucky.. and as you said, you spent last season in pain, so they rarely get lucky.

If the only thing a bootfitter does is measure your foot and then brings out 4 or 5 boots for you to try, they don't know what they are doing.. There are certain boots that will be more suited to your anatomy, and a skilled bootfitter should know what they are.. and you need to work backwards from that point. Get the right boot, then get the footbeds right, (if they are needed) then tweak the boot where the discomfort areas are. A proper boot fitting is rarely a one day process. And then there is alignment, most shops have no clue how to do it, and a skilled bootfitter would need to analyze you on snow or on video to make any alignment corrections.

Only about 20% of skiers are blessed with proper natural anatomical alignment, the other 80 % fall between bow legged and knock kneed of varying degrees.. and of that group, very few ever are correctly aligned and most spend an entire skiing lifetime skiiing with more difficulty in both comfort and less skill than they should be, and it all goes back to the bootfitting.

 

[Edd]

Pardon my ignorance, but do people get footbeds strictly for performance enhancement as opposed to comfort issues?

I have zero pain in my boots but I've wondered if they could be fitted better and, therefore, help my skiing. I had someone from a respected shop (won't mention it) snug my boots up last year with shims on the liners. I would have paid significantly for a full performance oriented fitting but he seemed more interested in putting me in new boots, saying we could go smaller. I was skeptical of this, thinking he was more interested in selling boots than anything else.

 

[ski220]

Well

I got in touch with both Jeff in concord and Hal at Northern Ski works at Killington
Now i just have no idea which one i want to go to. Sigh

You've been up to the K 6 times this year? Get it done.

 

[wa-loaf]

Pardon my ignorance, but do people get footbeds strictly for performance enhancement as opposed to comfort issues?

I have zero pain in my boots but I've wondered if they could be fitted better and, therefore, help my skiing. I had someone from a respected shop (won't mention it) snug my boots up last year with shims on the liners. I would have paid significantly for a full performance oriented fitting but he seemed more interested in putting me in new boots, saying we could go smaller. I was skeptical of this, thinking he was more interested in selling boots than anything else.

I've got footbeds for both comfort and performance. It's more comfortable since they are molded for your feet and the boots become more responsive for the same reason.

Your boots are probably too big, especially if you are padding your liners. They'll just pack out and you will be in the same boat again. You can always stretch out parts of boots that are a little small, but there's not much to be done if a boot is too big.

 

[jerryg]

I understand all the arch issues, comfort and added support, but my question about custom foot beds relates to the toes. About 8 years ago I was fit in boots that were two sizes too big. I knew there were too much room in the boot and about four years ago, I started to lose my two big toe nails mid-season. This was when I started skiing over 60 days a season. I didn't know my boots were fit incorrectly until two years ago wen I got my current boots and Greg at SR Sports had to spend about 6 hours over the course of a week, customizing my boot because my feet had become so screwed up with the last boots. That year I skied 90 days and last year 100. He had said when I got the new ones, that I would still have toe issues because of the previous damage and that has been the case. I lost one toe last week.

So for Christmas, I got a gift certificate to Jack Frost for $200 as my family had heard that custom foot beds could help with this problem. Is this the case? Can they really help with black two or am I just screwed as long as I ski? I'm used to the pain and I should be sponsored by Johnson & Johnson for my home surgeries! I don't want to spend a ton on custom foot beds if it isn't going to help, besides, I've now have at least a part of over 180 days in these boots the past two years.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[wa-loaf]

I don't want to spend a ton on custom foot beds if it isn't going to help, besides, I've now have at least a part of over 180 days in these boots the past two years.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

Custom footbeds usually run $150, so you've got that and some. If you want to spend money on boot fitting add another $100 - $200 for stance alignment, canting etc ... probably not worth it in the old boots.

Get the footbeds, they can come with you when you get new boots. I'm on the third pair of boots with my current footbeds. Save up for some money for bootfitting when you do get new boots.

 

[jerryg]

Custom footbeds usually run $150, so you've got that and some. If you want to spend money on boot fitting add another $100 - $200 for stance alignment, canting etc ... probably not worth it in the old boots.

Get the footbeds, they can come with you when you get new boots. I'm on the third pair of boots with my current footbeds. Save up for some money for bootfitting when you do get new boots.

Thanks. I didn't know they could be taken to the next pair of boots. That makes the purchase a lot more sensible.

 

[Bumpsis]

Only about 20% of skiers are blessed with proper natural anatomical alignment, the other 80 % fall between bow legged and knock kneed of varying degrees.. and of that group, very few ever are correctly aligned and most spend an entire skiing lifetime skiiing with more difficulty in both comfort and less skill than they should be, and it all goes back to the bootfitting.

I'm not really sure about the accuracy of this 20/80 split. My guess is that a much greater percentage of people can buy well ftting boots right off the shelf if they know what they are looking for.

I do know and fully acknowledge that there is number of people who really do need special footbeds, arch supports, drilling or molding of boots and whatever else a professional bootfitter can provide, but I'm of the thought that one can avoid a lot of boot fitting problems by carefully shopping for a boot that fits well to begin with rather than buying a boot they like and make IT fit your feet.

I absolutely need to have an arch support in my running, hiking and everyday shoes (I swear by Birkenstock arch supports), yet, I don't need it in my ski boots. Never did. I will however, take a really long time picking out new ski boots. It took me a about 3 months of trying out various brands in different shops before I made my pick.

 

[skizoo]

I'm not really sure about the accuracy of this 20/80 split. My guess is that a much greater percentage of people can buy well ftting boots right off the shelf if they know what they are looking for.

I do know and fully acknowledge that there is number of people who really do need special footbeds, arch supports, drilling or molding of boots and whatever else a professional bootfitter can provide, but I'm of the thought that one can avoid a lot of boot fitting problems by carefully shopping for a boot that fits well to begin with rather than buying a boot they like and make IT fit your feet.

I absolutely need to have an arch support in my running, hiking and everyday shoes (I swear by Birkenstock arch supports), yet, I don't need it in my ski boots. Never did. I will however, take a really long time picking out new ski boots. It took me a about 3 months of trying out various brands in different shops before I made my pick.

A well fitting boot, the footbed and alignment are not directly related.. they are complimentary.. Alignment is done on the external portion of a boot, Alignment is generally for correcting bow leggedness and knock knees.. you can have a perfectly fitting pair of boots and still be totally out of align...

About 80% of skiers fall into one of those 2 categories to some degree

 

[riverc0il]

I absolutely need to have an arch support in my running, hiking and everyday shoes (I swear by Birkenstock arch supports), yet, I don't need it in my ski boots. Never did. I will however, take a really long time picking out new ski boots. It took me a about 3 months of trying out various brands in different shops before I made my pick.

My question here would be have you ever had custom foot beds? It could perhaps be you don't even know that you would have better fit and performance with them because you never had them. When I got my first foot beds, I never thought that I had a fit or performance problem either. But they definitely helped in both categories.

But towards that 80/20 thing.... the right fit boot will never address foot irregularities the way a custom foot bed will do so. Some people may be able to buy a boot right off the rack and never have a need for customization. I did not need canting or other boot adjustments for example. But a foot bed helped get my feet in the right position. I can't imagine how a custom could not benefit the vast majority of people.

 

[Geoff]

I don't understand why people cheap out on ski boots when they have so much cash tied up in all the other aspects of skiing. I do custom footbeds and custom liners. Custom liners last about 400 days so you can swap in identical shells you buy on sale as you wear out the shells. Stock liners last maybe 150 days if you're not an agressive skier. For me, I have a big up front cash outlay and then spend next to nothing on boots for years. I have a really precise fit with a great heel pocket. I get both comfort and performance. I buckle in the morning and don't touch my boots until the end of the day. The fit is so good that I don't have to do much of anything with the bottom two buckles. With custom liners, you don't have to downsize to get the precise fit so I don't get black toe.

 

[riverc0il]

I buckle in the morning and don't touch my boots until the end of the day.

Same here. I never understood having to unbuckle every lift ride. Those are the folks that either need a different boot or need a custom foot bed. I can't imagine boots causing my feet that much pain.

 

[Bumpsis]

My question here would be have you ever had custom foot beds? It could perhaps be you don't even know that you would have better fit and performance with them because you never had them. When I got my first foot beds, I never thought that I had a fit or performance problem either. But they definitely helped in both categories.

But towards that 80/20 thing.... the right fit boot will never address foot irregularities the way a custom foot bed will do so. Some people may be able to buy a boot right off the rack and never have a need for customization. I did not need canting or other boot adjustments for example. But a foot bed helped get my feet in the right position. I can't imagine how a custom could not benefit the vast majority of people.

I did have a couple of boots in the past that had a full custom fit (Hanson Exbibition and Hanson Alto) and these two boots are the ones I remember most fondly but that was for more than just the fit. I just loved the simplicty of the design and function. But I have been almost just as happy with the more modern boot designs (ie. front 4 or 5 buckle) which fit well without the wizardry of aftermarket bootfitting.

Just like Geoff in his post, I put my boots on and keep them on all day without a hint of discomfort, but perhaps I'm one of the lucky people who can find well fitting boots right off the shelf - well almost. My last pair of Technicas came with a baggie full of shims and other adjusting do-das, so used those to make the boots just right. I probably would have prefferred to get a custom fit, but only as a part of the original purchase. So my approach is to look for a boot that fits right off the shelf (with provided adjustments).

What really comes out at me when I'm thinking about this whole boot fitting isse is that the boot manufacturers turned out a neat trick. They passed the responsibility of making sure that the boot fits onto us, the consumers. Just look at all the posts in this thread. There is an obvious acceptance that buing a boot is just 1/2 of the transaction. The other half, for which we, the consumers are expected to foot the bill (ha, ha), is the proccess of fitting it. I just don't accept it and think it's a gyp.

In the past there were a number of boot brands that offered custom fitting as a competitive feature. Then, the move was to make moldable liners that eventually were shaped by user's own lower leg and provide something of a custom fit. Now, although the boots are as expensive as they were before, yet many of us just go along with that and happily dish out more money to make the boots actually functional.

If this trend continues, I would't be surprised if in the future we'll be offered just the boot shell and then a liner, as two, totaly separate transactions.

 

[riverc0il]

Let's not confuse "custom fit" with a custom foot bed here. For the average person, I do not think a custom fitting is really needed... particularly if the shop molds the liners when they sell the boot (assuming you buy in shop... shops loosing business to the Internet should consider this a MUST free service). Aside from heating and molding the liner, most I think a significant majority of skiers can ski a boot right out of the box without major boot adjustments.

Foot beds though are a different story. You can not expect the ski boot industry to make a different boot to match every person's foot. The expense would be ridiculous and passed onto the consumer. I can not even imagine the cost. As it is, boot makers make one specific last for each of their boot lines and that is it. They don't make lasts that fit all fit and they know it. And that is just for the shell and the liner. They also can not include 100 different foot beds either. I do not think this is a "neat trick" but the only way to make it economically work. The same thing happens in all equipment and gear that is best fitted (bikes, golf, tennis raquets, etc)... they all sell a standard product to the consumer and leave it to the consumer to tweak the product to their needs. The higher performance product you buy (read: less volume production and sales) combined with higher requirements but the end user combine to require customization.

 

[RISkier]

Let's not confuse "custom fit" with a custom foot bed here. For the average person, I do not think a custom fitting is really needed... particularly if the shop molds the liners when they sell the boot (assuming you buy in shop... shops loosing business to the Internet should consider this a MUST free service). Aside from heating and molding the liner, most I think a significant majority of skiers can ski a boot right out of the box without major boot adjustments.

Foot beds though are a different story. You can not expect the ski boot industry to make a different boot to match every person's foot. The expense would be ridiculous and passed onto the consumer. I can not even imagine the cost. As it is, boot makers make one specific last for each of their boot lines and that is it. They don't make lasts that fit all fit and they know it. And that is just for the shell and the liner. They also can not include 100 different foot beds either. I do not think this is a "neat trick" but the only way to make it economically work. The same thing happens in all equipment and gear that is best fitted (bikes, golf, tennis raquets, etc)... they all sell a standard product to the consumer and leave it to the consumer to tweak the product to their needs. The higher performance product you buy (read: less volume production and sales) combined with higher requirements but the end user combine to require customization.

I think it really depends on what is meant by "custom fit" and "without major adjustments." But a good bootfitter can go a long way towards matching an individual's foot to a boot that comes close out of the box. But you have to start with a boot appropriate for the foot. I have relatively narrow feet but my toes are relatively wide and I have hammer toes. Out of the box, a lot of boots that work for my toes are too large for the rest of my foot, and boots that fit my heel, instep, etc. don't have sufficient room for my toes. When I was fit the fitter first looked closely at and measured my feet. After recovering from the shock of seeing my toes he picked out a couple of different boots, did a shell fit, had me where them a while, etc. We decided I was basically between two different sized boots. We tried the larger boots and I thought they felt great but thought they might be a bit too big. Tried the smaller size and everything felt good other than the tops of my toes. We kept talking about where the toes were hurting and he was really trying to assess if the boots were just too short. After some time he decided he could drop the front part of the toe area a bit and do some stretching to open up the toe box. While the boots are a chore to get on they feel almost like slippers once on and I can wear them all day in comfort. Out of the box I couldn't have worn them and I'm convinced the next size up would have been too large. My feet aren't very normal (they're hideous actually) but I certainly think most folks will do better working with a good fitter. I know I'll never buy boots without working with someone I have a lot of confidence it.

 

[automagp68]

Bootfitting With Jeff Bokum

Guys

I wanted to take a few minutes to tell you all what i have learned and what an awesome experience i just had. After starting this thread and doing some homework and reading reviews i decided to go see Jeff Bokum in Concord NH http://www.profileorthoticcenter.com Jeff Bokum, C-PED (Certified Pedorthist) Concord, NH Phone: (603)491-4917 E-mail: skiiboot@aol.com

After spending the last year and half in pain almost every ski day and thinking i was going to have to go under the knife to get relief from what i thought was a bone spur, I started this thread. I made an appointment with Jeff after having my boots worked on several times by people that claim to be "bootiftters" Ive tried down under's, A lines Super Feet etc with no relief.

Jeff made me a Last minute appointment on a Sunday none the less the weekend after xmass. When i got there i was greeted with a warm smile and his buddy Radar (dog) that is the cutest Pitbull mix Ive ever scene.

I explained to Jeff my pain and issues and told him my fear of sking being over this season with surgery not far off. He told me to relax and let him work! Jeff spent about 45 mins just looking at my feet and explaining what parts do what. Showing me skeleton models and how my ankle works etc. Taking measurements and having me do different stretching exercises to show me what i was getting into. Once i had a better understanding of how my foot works, Jeff went to work. Jeff made me custom orthotic (speelcheck) foot beds for my boots that are able to hold my foot in a position that relieves pressure from the Taylor's bunion i have on my left foot. Once my costume foot beds were hand crafted Jeff was also able to correct the mess the ski market guy made with a dremel tool in his shop with his own specialized tools.

Stepping into my boots for the first time out of Jeff's hands was AMAZING!! No more pain! They fit like a glove. Just enough space to accommodate the painful bunion with no other motion to keep me tight in my boot. This man knows exactly what he is doing and is a true craftsman when its comes to feet.

For anyone suffering from boot pain, cramping or bunions like i was that nearly put me in tears on the hill. Go see Jeff. It will be like skiing was meant to be. Pain free and fun. Thanks so much Jeff! your the man!! And Radar also!

Jeff Bokum, C-PED (Certified Pedorthist) Concord, NH Phone: (603)491-4917 E-mail: skiiboot@aol.com

 

[RISkier]

automagp68,

Glad you posted this. Good fitters can do wonders. Good luck with your new setup.

 

[spilla]

Ski Haus in Salem, NH has the best boot fiiters anywhere. Lee and Steve have been fittng my family forever. I would deffinately recomend!

 

[Geoff]

Guys

I wanted to take a few minutes to tell you all what i have learned and what an awesome experience i just had. After starting this thread and doing some homework and reading reviews i decided to go see Jeff Bokum in Concord NH http://www.profileorthoticcenter.com Jeff Bokum, C-PED (Certified Pedorthist)

There are quite a few good boot fitters who are CPEDs out there. The best one I ever saw was Gordon Hay. He went on to found ALine. http://www.aline.com/

 

[MR. evil]

Ski Haus in Salem, NH has the best boot fiiters anywhere. Lee and Steve have been fittng my family forever. I would deffinately recomend!

Aren't you Steve from Ski Haus? Your post comes across as a customer review.