Dearest Mt. Operators......please don't groom 'Double Diamonds' ever

[deadheadskier]

'Double Diamonds' in theory are supposed to be for the 'Expert Skiers and Riders'.

Outside of freeze/thaw events, I can't understand why they are ever groomed or even half groomed for that matter.

There are very few Eastern Trails that I feel are still barely 'Double Diamond' worthy when they are groomed. Gondi Line and White Nitro and Sugarloaf come to mind.

Does Outer Limits at Killington still have that *WARNING* sign at the top? Why is it there when the trail is almost always partially 'dumbed down' for the Joey's to ski. Sunday River has a number of culprits....Vortex, White Heat, Top Gun. Stowe does it with Liftline and National.

I've just never understood why resorts feel they need to coddle the egos of non-expert skiers and dumb down their double diamond trails such that advanced intermediate skiers can buy a Pin for their baseball caps.

FIS Downhill Course trails aside, this appears to be purely an Eastern skiing phenomenon. It's not like Jackson Hole would ever put an escalotor down Corbett's

 

[riverc0il]

I've just never understood why resorts feel they need to coddle the egos of non-expert skiers and dumb down their double diamond trails such that advanced intermediate skiers can buy a Pin for their baseball caps.

I understand because I was once that skier. I think a lot of us were at one time before we saw through the ploy. Having a few double diamonds on the map suggests that the resort has harder terrain than other mountains. Its a bit of a dare for the developing skier and it does not exclude groomer only skiers that couldn't even handle blue square bumps let alone something like Rumble.

While I understand, I do not agree with the practice now because it makes the ratings murky. Where does one go after a double black diamond? Smuggs knows the answer to that question with the only triple black in the east! At least a tree trail paralleling Liftline might be worthy of that rating (at least the upper half). But there is a big difference between, say, something like Liftline or National at Stowe groomed vs Goat. But the trail ratings don't show that.

While I think it is appropriate that trails are rated against other trails at each individual mountain, I also think some standardization would be helpful. Kind of like national reporting of snow conditions (which still leaves a lot to be desired). A mountain with groomers only and no bump trails should never have a double diamond trail. If a trail can be groomed (even if it requires a winch), it does not require any more ability than to side slip to get down safely.

But its a moot point because marking trails as harder and more dangerous than they are (see Sunday River's "No Fall Zone" signs on White Heat et al, are they still there?) works for repeat business. There is a crowd of skiers that wants challenge but either does not want or has not yet developed true expert level technique. That goes along with my comment in the Sugarbush level rating system that most skiers rate themselves higher in technique than they actually are. People want to see themselves as better than they really are. Double Diamond ratings instill that feeling, if only subconsciously as we all know that we are "smarter than that". Right.

I'll admit it. I fell for it at one point. I bought the shirt at Sunday River a dozen years ago that lists all their double diamond trails. I used to really like Sunday River. It works and I know it does because I was that fool.

 

[Puck it]

Just another example - Goosebumps are Sunapee. Com'on Man!!!!!

 

[billski]

Most resorts will retort that the rating system is "relative" to their own hill. A blue at Gunstock certainly isn't the same as a blue at Stowe, from many aspects.

And it doesn't seem to be limited to pitch. Some resorts will mark a trail black diamond just because it has obstacles in it, or because it's narrow or because it's un-groomed. I don't think you'd ever get resorts to standardize on that one. Being able to say you have something for everyone and something to aspire to is a huge draw.

Sometimes they get "dumbed down" because of the weather, thank you Mr. East Coast Thaw-Freeze Cycle. I've been on blacks at Stowe that sometimes ski black and sometimes ski blue depending on the grooming. A hardpacked bullet-proof FGR is not a lot of fun once its been pounded into submission. We in the east are a victim of our weather systems.

One thing I have learned, is that the skiers and boarders who ski difficult trails with grace and skill are the last people to brag about it.

 

[gmcunni]

I've just never understood why resorts feel they need to coddle the egos of non-expert skiers and dumb down their double diamond trails such that advanced intermediate skiers can buy a Pin for their baseball caps.

$$ / marketing


i, like riverc0il, was for a long time one of those people. of course i had an "I skied Outer Limits" t-shirt! i was my badge of honor for making it down the roughest mogul run in the NE. i hardly called what i did that day "skiing".. turn. stop, rest, look for next place to stop, traverse left, traverse right, repeat. probably took me 30 minutes to get down but boy was i proud of myself


i'd guess we, the average AZ'er, are mostly past it but the mental aspect of skiing is HUGE at lower skill levels.. i don't have a big issue with mountains letting people enjoy a little ego boost, helps the person + helps the mountain.

 

[bigbog]

Agree DHS..and I'd like to add single diamonds..lol...and I can't ski double diamonds very well.....lol, *BUT at least ungroomed...with a little accumulation is often softer to land on.

 

[billski]

One resort does it best (MRG?) for the legit diamond trails. they post a sign at the top of the trail that says, "Expert? You'd better be!"

 

[skidmarks]

MRG Lift Line Grooming

From time to time they would send out the Ski Patrol to shovel the tops off the moguls. I can get behind that kind of grooming.

I love Rumble because for me every run down is an adventure. Some day my goal is to ski it top to bottom like an Eagan instead of in sections. I don't think they could get a cat on it anyway.

As for grooming Double Diamonds I must admit very steep cord is fun to ski too. I just don't enjoy places like Okemo where they groom it to death and every trail looks like the next.

Natural Grooming,
in the BC spring rain grooms the corn! Then we go out and carve on it. Doesn't get any better then that.

 

[tjf67]

'Double Diamonds' in theory are supposed to be for the 'Expert Skiers and Riders'.

Outside of freeze/thaw events, I can't understand why they are ever groomed or even half groomed for that matter.

There are very few Eastern Trails that I feel are still barely 'Double Diamond' worthy when they are groomed. Gondi Line and White Nitro and Sugarloaf come to mind.

Does Outer Limits at Killington still have that *WARNING* sign at the top? Why is it there when the trail is almost always partially 'dumbed down' for the Joey's to ski. Sunday River has a number of culprits....Vortex, White Heat, Top Gun. Stowe does it with Liftline and National.

I've just never understood why resorts feel they need to coddle the egos of non-expert skiers and dumb down their double diamond trails such that advanced intermediate skiers can buy a Pin for their baseball caps.

FIS Downhill Course trails aside, this appears to be purely an Eastern skiing phenomenon. It's not like Jackson Hole would ever put an escalotor down Corbett's

IMO if you can get a groomer on a run it should not have double diamond status.

 

[WWF-VT]

I know we'll never see a groomer on Rumble...took this pic while hiking down today

 

[thetrailboss]

Bump. This reminded me of this photo I took last April at Bretton Woods. Kind of pathetic that they have to tell their groomer operators where not to go. You'd think they would know the mountain well enough.....

 

[Abubob]

Seems more areas are trying to keep a slope or two ungroomed. I remember the last time I was at Killington (and it was a loooong time ago) and having a choice between Outer Limits with moguls and Wildfire groomed but I guess that changes with management. Does Killington groom everything now?

 

[4aprice]

While I agree with the op that some trails should be left alone, I'm not so much anti grooming as I see it being a necessary evil particularly in years such as this past season. That being said one thing I really like but don't see enough of is the 1/2 groom, 1/2 bump run. Someone mentioned Goosebumps at Sunapee which is a perfect example. You have a wide trail and all it would take would be a couple of lines to one side of it and everybody should be happy. This is something I've been trying to hammer home to the management of my home mountain. Cliffhanger is a wide trail and a couple of bump lines on the side of the headwall would be perfect there. I understand some people don't like bumps but the 3/4 groomed is still wider then most of the other trails on the mountain and I don't understand why most people wouldn't be happy with that.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[bobbutts]

Even if the signs are silly, I am a fan of Bretton Wood's policy of permanently marking several runs prominently as never groom and sticking to that. The customer who avoids bumps at all costs will simply never take those trails and conversely those who like natural conditions know where to find them.

 

[Abubob]

The customer who avoids bumps at all costs will simply never take those trails

You would think. But it seems some beginners can't read either. :roll:

 

[SIKSKIER]

This bump got me thinking about Cannon's trail rating.No double diamonds on the map.Also,you could never get a cat down Tramline and thats not a double diamond.

 

[Cannonball]

The biggest offender I'm familiar with is True Grit at Waterville. It's pitch qualifies as black diamond for sure. But cripes, the thing is a half-mile wide and always groomed. I took my 10 year old nephews down it the other day. They literally would not believe me when I told them it was a double black. Then, the next day at Cannon they were mad when I wouldn't take them down single-black Tramline at Cannon after they had easily smoked a double-black the day before.

 

[rocojerry]

please don't groom any diamonds, ever.

I've seen a 'blue-black' designation out west, which to me means a steep groomer...

 

[SkiFanE]

There are some that need grooming, some that should never be touched, and some that can be 50/50. SR has improved so much the last few years on leaving some stretches of popular groomers to go natural. Obsession...right side has not seen a groomer all year (I don't think)...bottom right of Risky is left bumpy, hasn't been groomed in a long long time. Lower Bims. Made those bumps untouchable for a bit, but they were aweseome with recent snow or warmth. As long as there are bumps somewhere, I'm happy...not grooming every black trail at SR would be a business failure lol...have to admit the bread and butter skier loves it that way.

 

[hammer]

The biggest offender I'm familiar with is True Grit at Waterville. It's pitch qualifies as black diamond for sure. But cripes, the thing is a half-mile wide and always groomed. I took my 10 year old nephews down it the other day. They literally would not believe me when I told them it was a double black. Then, the next day at Cannon they were mad when I wouldn't take them down single-black Tramline at Cannon after they had easily smoked a double-black the day before.

I thought they used to leave half of it to bump up...

The pitch is definitely on the steeper side but it's so wide it really isn't a problem to ski it. Last time I went I went down it a few times and myself and plenty of intermediates were managing it OK.

Guess I'm all for grooming out a double black if the natural progression is getting so nasty that no one goes down it, the trail can be groomed, and the trail needs a "reset". Doing it on a regular basis does kind of "dumb down" the trail.

All that said, trail ratings are relative. Pats Peak has a few double blacks that are always groomed...and while they are steeper than the single blacks, they are much easier than Hurricane which they leave to bump up.