Burke Mtn sold to Jay Peak

[bobbutts]

If I were a local I'd probably prefer to ski-on to the lifts on Saturdays and track powder all day too, but 2 hsq's + modern snowmaking and grooming isn't really compatible with an underused mtn.

 

[from_the_NEK]

One of the issues with a crosswalk in East Burke (other than the fact that the speed and volume of traffic there would lead to ignoring it) is that setbacks on each side of the crosswalk would eliminate parking in front of businesses (such as the Northeast Kingdom Country Store). It has been looked at a few times in the past ten years. Moving KT outside of the village would be a good thing, not a bad thing and would benefit Burke and the bikers. Route 114 through East Burke was a problem before KT came along and now it can be dangerous,particularly on the weekends, and, as I mentioned earlier, the high volume of cars and bikers will ultimately lead to someone getting hurt or worse there and nobody wants or needs that (lots of bad publicity,lawsuits,etc).

Kind of a head scratcher as there is very little space to work with in the heart of the village. Something definitely needs to be done to slow the traffic through and to funnel the biker/pedestrian traffic to safer routes. However, simply saying the the KTA office should move is kind of like shooting your goose.

If I had ultimate power, this is what I would do:

Make the street parking "30 minute". On weekends the currently no time limit parking is often taken up by the cars of MTB'ers left parked there all day making the street parking for the businesses almost pointless. Eliminate the one spot (red "X"). The green cross walk goes from the KTA walkway across to the corner of the EB Market parking lot (I'm not sure what regulations are for not ending a crosswalk at another sidewalk). Add temporary middle of the road "SLOW" signs that are posted before the curve on the south side of town and just below the Post Office on the north end. The signs would be a pain for the Canadian trucks that drive through town at 40-45 mph but i think that is point right
The other thing would be to redesign the intersection where Belden Hill Rd and the Pub Outback driveway connect onto Rt 114. Right now that intersection takes up almost 90ft of road frontage and creates a lot of confusion when vehicles are going in and out of that area at the same time. The parking spot eliminated above could be revived here.

Belden Hill/Pub Outback intersection revision (5 parallel parking spaces between the intersection and the cross walk):

 

[from_the_NEK]

Maybe Burke should offer Segway tours up the Toll Road as a source of income :idea:

 

[the original trailboss]

Enforcement

Restricted parking requires enforcement - currently not available unless done by KT or by contract with the sheriffs, etc. I stand by my earlier post - again - headquartering KT at the Sherburne Lodge won't hurt East Burke business as long as there is a trail (or trails) that connect the Sherburne with the rest of the system. Plus all the traffic has to travel through town to get to the mountain so food, gas, etc will still be sold. Route 114 and East Burke village cannot sustain the volume now being seen in spite of what some say that the over-congestion is a "good problem to have". Good problems eventually become just problems or bad problems and are self-limiting i.e. too much of a good thing.......... I am not by any stretch trying to be negative about KT and its success and its success for East Burke (a ghost town before John Worth,etc created KT) but there is a reality there that has to be dealt with. Pretending it doesn't exist is in the category of lying to yourself.

 

[kingdom-tele]

If I were a local I'd probably prefer to ski-on to the lifts on Saturdays and track powder all day too, but 2 hsq's + modern snowmaking and grooming isn't really compatible with an underused mtn.

which makes one wonder why they are so important to the powers that be for an underused mountain

NEK - you should get on that segway rental business, maybe a few nicely paved trails through Darling Hill.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB seems like you could ditch a couple of things from that list and still have a nice day skiing. I am out of the loop. Just an opinion.

The discussion is about what it will take for Burke to be a successful business. One can certainly have a good day of skiing in many places by earning their turns. But the question is what Burke needs or doesn't need to operate.

 

[riverc0il]

Jay was a resort long before the waterpark and golf course went in. It just wasn't a four season resort.

Regarding Burke, sustainability, and is bigger better... depends entirely on how you personally feel about those issues. But if Burke was strictly a locals mountain, it would have long since closed. Part of keeping the mountain open and being viable in the long term is getting metro area skiers there and spending money. And that means giving them more of what they want. HSQs certainly have helped. Base area lodging will also go a long way. Beyond that, I don't know. I hope that is it.

 

[thetrailboss]

which makes one wonder why they are so important to the powers that be for an underused mountain

I think that the goal of the REIT was to keep the mountain going and to upgrade it so that it could be further developed or resold to make more money. They wanted to invest their money and get a return. They certainly had a bumpy ride as the owners and now are out of the ski business.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Hey from_the_nek--remind me where Algonquin Lodge is.

It is the large white house near the softball field (past the turn for mountain road).

I have no idea if the owners would ever sell it.

 

[troy]

Originally Posted by the original trailboss
Burke's biggest asset is what it isn't.

But remember that this asset has been a financial hot potato for many years. Running a ski area by itself is a 4 month a year business with a razor thin-to-negative margin. Other things, be it hotel rooms,condos, water parks, golf courses, zoos or whatever, are absolutely necessary to make Burke a viable going concern, not just next year, but 15-30 years from now.

well said stomachdoc. The original trailboss is just spouting the same crap most locals of most mountains say so that they can keep the place to themselves. I and most of my flatlander buds, hope JP developes Burke like there is no tomorrow. just sayin'

 

[from_the_NEK]

Restricted parking requires enforcement - currently not available unless done by KT or by contract with the sheriffs, etc. I stand by my earlier post - again - headquartering KT at the Sherburne Lodge won't hurt East Burke business as long as there is a trail (or trails) that connect the Sherburne with the rest of the system. Plus all the traffic has to travel through town to get to the mountain so food, gas, etc will still be sold. Route 114 and East Burke village cannot sustain the volume now being seen in spite of what some say that the over-congestion is a "good problem to have". Good problems eventually become just problems or bad problems and are self-limiting i.e. too much of a good thing.......... I am not by any stretch trying to be negative about KT and its success and its success for East Burke (a ghost town before John Worth,etc created KT) but there is a reality there that has to be dealt with. Pretending it doesn't exist is in the category of lying to yourself.

Agreed but basing the main office at the mtn 1.6 (up-hill) miles away is a bad idea. Getting it out of the heart of downtown would be good but keep it close.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I and most of my flatlander buds, hope JP developes Burke like there is no tomorrow. just sayin'

This is what happens when 15 year olds are allowed to use computers. They are constantly thinking with other parts of their bodies.

 

[troy]

Kind of a head scratcher as there is very little space to work with in the heart of the village. Something definitely needs to be done to slow the traffic through and to funnel the biker/pedestrian traffic to safer routes. However, simply saying the the KTA office should move is kind of like shooting your goose.

If I had ultimate power, this is what I would do:

Make the street parking "30 minute". On weekends the currently no time limit parking is often taken up by the cars of MTB'ers left parked there all day making the street parking for the businesses almost pointless. Eliminate the one spot (red "X"). The green cross walk goes from the KTA walkway across to the corner of the EB Market parking lot (I'm not sure what regulations are for not ending a crosswalk at another sidewalk). Add temporary middle of the road "SLOW" signs that are posted before the curve on the south side of town and just below the Post Office on the north end. The signs would be a pain for the Canadian trucks that drive through town at 40-45 mph but i think that is point right
The other thing would be to redesign the intersection where Belden Hill Rd and the Pub Outback driveway connect onto Rt 114. Right now that intersection takes up almost 90ft of road frontage and creates a lot of confusion when vehicles are going in and out of that area at the same time. The parking spot eliminated above could be revived here.

Belden Hill/Pub Outback intersection revision (5 parallel parking spaces between the intersection and the cross walk):

and this is what happens when folks are bored at work! :flame:

 

[kingdom-tele]

The discussion is about what it will take for Burke to be a successful business. One can certainly have a good day of skiing in many places by earning their turns. But the question is what Burke needs or doesn't need to operate.

EYT might be a bit drastic TB. I was just contemplating letting the edges get a little roughed up a bit.

but your right, moot discussion.

so an underused mountain needs how much infrastructure developed to catch the eye of people who have yet to visit, sounds eerily familiar to every other owner

think burke can sink JPR?

anyone want odds on when stenger and co dump it back into the market (I'm going 5)

 

[thetrailboss]

Originally Posted by the original trailboss
Burke's biggest asset is what it isn't.



well said stomachdoc. The original trailboss is just spouting the same crap most locals of most mountains say so that they can keep the place to themselves. I and most of my flatlander buds, hope JP developes Burke like there is no tomorrow. just sayin'

Yeah, um, OK. :roll: You obviously don't understand what makes Burke what it is. The question is how do you keep what folks like but make it a stable and viable business. There are plenty of built out places for you to visit.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah, um, OK. :roll: You obviously don't understand what makes Burke what it is. The question is how do you keep what folks like but make it a stable and viable business. There are plenty of built out places for you to visit.

The thing is that what Burke "is" is what most ski areas "were" in the 70s. I'm sure there are many old time Okemo skiers who wish the place was still all Poma lifts and narrow trails. I'm sure there are old school Stowe skiers who miss the single chair and the Front Four the way they once were.

Outside of co-op owned MRG and Magic (obviously not full co-op), the only 2000 vert mountains I can think of that have preserved much of their old school character would be Wildcat and that's due to strict development restrictions in the WMNF and Cannon due to it being a state park.

I love Burke for what it "is", but I don't necessarily think most businessmen see much long term financial stability and profitability in keeping it the way it is. With the abundance of great intermediate terrain, if I were Stenger I'd be using Smuggs as a template for base development at Burke. Turn it into a place that is a mecca for families from the Boston metro area. It's a more palatable commute than Jay from Boston (and much more so than Smuggs). Get those wealthy skiing families from Boston buying vacation homes at Burke with the attraction of Jay being on the same pass to appease family members who want the option of more advanced terrain.

Mind you, that's just how I'd look at Burke through business owner glasses. As for me, the occasional Burke skier, I hope nothing changes. It's the single best place to ski on a Saturday in New England. Wish it wasn't 3 hours away and I had local accommodations, otherwise I'd ski there much more often.

 

[riverc0il]

The idea of using Smuggs as a model for Burke is sound (Smuggs is also kinda old school and over 2k vert). Obviously, Smuggs has had no difficulty in over coming its geographical hurdles. Saddleback is another old schooler over the 2k mark (dubiously, albeit). Back has done well in recent years due to tapping into the Maine market but they have generated a buzz and increased visits from metro markets by building a new quad, expanding terrain, and adding glades plus just getting the word out. Burke did not do a good job marketing their new quad, IMO. I just didn't see the buzz that a new high speed quad should generate. The Jay acqusition is surely going to generate some buzz, especially this summer with the Kingdom Trails (just 45 minutes away from Jay! LOLOLOLOL).

 

[thetrailboss]

I agree that they did not market the new HSQ well at all. In fact they spent most of the summer saying nothing at all. Weird. Their winter marketing, from what I saw, looked good but I wish they kept the same logo that they had.

 

[WWF-VT]

I love Burke for what it "is", but I don't necessarily think most businessmen see much long term financial stability and profitability in keeping it the way it is. With the abundance of great intermediate terrain, if I were Stenger I'd be using Smuggs as a template for base development at Burke. Turn it into a place that is a mecca for families from the Boston metro area. It's a more palatable commute than Jay from Boston (and much more so than Smuggs). Get those wealthy skiing families from Boston buying vacation homes at Burke with the attraction of Jay being on the same pass to appease family members who want the option of more advanced terrain.

Smuggs has built its reputation over many years as VT’s top family destination ski resort. It also has the advantage of being only an hour from Burlington which serves as a draw for college students and locals with reasonably priced season passes. Burke is close to two hours from Burlington and there are too many mountains closer to Burlington that draw from that population ahead of Burke.

I think that last 3 or 4 owners have hoped to make Burke “a mecca for families from the Boston metro area” but there are too many mountains that have already captured that market. I don’t think that a HSQ and a shared pass with Jay Peak – which is still another hour drive – is going to do much to get “wealthy skiing families from Boston” to buy vacation homes there.

 

[kingdom-tele]

The thing is that what Burke "is" is what most ski areas "were" in the 70s. I'm sure there are many old time Okemo skiers who wish the place was still all Poma lifts and narrow trails. I'm sure there are old school Stowe skiers who miss the single chair and the Front Four the way they once were.

Outside of co-op owned MRG and Magic (obviously not full co-op), the only 2000 vert mountains I can think of that have preserved much of their old school character would be Wildcat and that's due to strict development restrictions in the WMNF and Cannon due to it being a state park.

I love Burke for what it "is", but I don't necessarily think most businessmen see much long term financial stability and profitability in keeping it the way it is. With the abundance of great intermediate terrain, if I were Stenger I'd be using Smuggs as a template for base development at Burke. Turn it into a place that is a mecca for families from the Boston metro area. It's a more palatable commute than Jay from Boston (and much more so than Smuggs). Get those wealthy skiing families from Boston buying vacation homes at Burke with the attraction of Jay being on the same pass to appease family members who want the option of more advanced terrain.

Mind you, that's just how I'd look at Burke through business owner glasses. As for me, the occasional Burke skier, I hope nothing changes. It's the single best place to ski on a Saturday in New England. Wish it wasn't 3 hours away and I had local accommodations, otherwise I'd ski there much more often.

Smuggs has built its reputation over many years as VT’s top family destination ski resort. It also has the advantage of being only an hour from Burlington which serves as a draw for college students and locals with reasonably priced season passes. Burke is close to two hours from Burlington and there are too many mountains closer to Burlington that draw from that population ahead of Burke.

I think that last 3 or 4 owners have hoped to make Burke “a mecca for families from the Boston metro area” but there are too many mountains that have already captured that market. I don’t think that a HSQ and a shared pass with Jay Peak – which is still another hour drive – is going to do much to get “wealthy skiing families from Boston” to buy vacation homes there.

so whats the happy medium?

can't seem to have a mountain for only skiing, can't seem to have a mountain that cater's to a local community, can't draw from the ultra privileged, can't draw from the college community, doesn't have "expert" terrain , so the hardcore won't come, doesn't have infrastructure to entice people to hang out and not be outside doing something, seems like a pretty well effed situation from a business standpoint. Maybe Burke, or more to the point, the operators of Burke, should stop trying to polish the turd, it hasn't worked, based on the market review I've read here, it won't work, and the effort to make it something it will likely never be eradicates the access from a local community who can't afford to pay for the "enhancement" of a mountain that will never be on the radar of the wealthy

are there that really that few people left that are looking for something that isn't? I am afraid of the answer I think.