Magic's Red Chair down again!

[skithetrees]

This was what I was thinking...co-op owners don't want to see the loss of revenue from the broken lift and then the throwing of good money after bad with these vouchers. It's a tough place to be in.

Agreed. A promise to have a contingency plan (i.e., the black chair) in the future, a beer and a burger would have made me more than happy. I do still disagree with respect to prioritizing snow making over reliable lifts. Magic just won't compete on man made snow anytime soon. Maybe some expansion is needed, but two reliable lifts that allow the mountain to service the marked increase of skiers it sees when the snow is good seems much more important to me. When the snow isn't good, at least for now, the fact remains people don't come to magic. That may change over time, but I think the mountain needs to be able to better reap when the times are good than eke something out when the snow is not there.

 

[Marcos17]

Anyone have any guess as to what the conditions will be like if Magic is open this Saturday? I realize they don't groom a lot of their trails so will it mainly be hard pack bumps, etc. on most, or will it still be pretty fresh considering they haven't opened since the 29th/30th? Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[abc]

This was what I was thinking...co-op owners don't want to see the loss of revenue from the broken lift and then the throwing of good money after bad with these vouchers. It's a tough place to be in.

Actually, there's no "loss of revenue" with the passing out of vouchers. Those people already paid for a 1 day lift ticket. Magic already got the "revenue"!

The lift didn't run so they're entitled to get a refund, or at least a voucher which they may or may not use the rest of the season.

Granted, those who arrive AFTER the lift broke down wouldn't have bought a ticket at all. Those revenues ARE lost. But they don't get vouchers either, I assume.

 

[Smellytele]

Actually, there's no "loss of revenue" with the passing out of vouchers. Those people already paid for a 1 day lift ticket. Magic already got the "revenue"!

The lift didn't run so they're entitled to get a refund, or at least a voucher which they may or may not use the rest of the season.

Granted, those who arrive AFTER the lift broke down wouldn't have bought a ticket at all. Those revenues ARE lost. But they don't get vouchers either, I assume.

I believe that season passholders are getting a free ticket to give to someone else

 

[slatham]

Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use. As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary or wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of revenue, something Magic cannot afford.

Fingers crossed on today's test, and next weeks work on the Black grips....

THINK SNOW!

 

[Nick]

Giving away that many free tickets just hurts the revenue stream. .

That had crossed my mind as well. mt. ops basically has to run the mt two days for the price of one.

 

[Smellytele]

Hey any passholders want to get rid of their free tickets? :roll:

 

[billski]

I'll be there on Saturday as long as we're operating. Tickets purchase on the magic web site are fully refundable if not-op.

 

[billski]

Bolton's Timberline Quad has been down since December 30th. ETA on fix is Jan 12th.

 

[abc]

Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use.

Sorry, my bad for not picking up on that.

As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary or wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of revenue, something Magic cannot afford.

Most other mountains don't give out vouchers to pass holders when a lift or two broke down. So at first glance it appears that's "giving away revenue" that Magic couldn't afford.

On the other hand, Magic has a more limited operation than its neighbors. When both lifts are down, the whole mountain shuts down on a perfectly good day, holiday weekend not withstanding. Further more, the lift stoppage was due to poor maintenance rather than say, wind hold. That being the difference.

And due to the lack of snowmaking, such good skiing days may not be repeated for a while. So how many of those vouchers will get used? There's but only one more "family skiing" period left, the President's Day week. If a pass holder invites his/her friends to use the voucher, it's likely they end up buying additional lift tickets on top of the freebee! So my guess of the "free" voucher might just bring in as much ADDITIONAL paying customer as they lost in redeeming of the vouchers.

And the bottom line being, missing those 2 very busy holiday weekend day alone must have cost Magic a HUGE loss of revenue in and of itself! Cost of additional voucher probably doesn't matter either way.

 

[billski]

Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier. Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program. Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.

For pass holders, how about a special day opening (T, W, R) (Stowe did that early in the season) or special privs, like first half hour before lifts officially open for pass holders only? There is not a lot of incremental cost in the later, but the former would be rather costly. Setting precedent is the only other problem I would see.

 

[abc]

special privs, like first half hour before lifts officially open for pass holders only?

That's a big draw on popular (crowded) mountains. Not sure it makes that big of a difference in a niche mountain like Magic. It's rarely crowded at opening time...

 

[thetrailboss]

Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use. As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary or wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of revenue, something Magic cannot afford.

Fingers crossed on today's test, and next weeks work on the Black grips....

THINK SNOW!

I thought that those who bought a day ticket were given a voucher and passholders were given a food voucher? Is that not the case? If they are giving free day tickets to season passholders, than that is a different story and not a good idea at all. As someone else here said the standard MO in the business is if a lift breaks down, and folks are caught on it or really disadvantaged, you give them a free coffee or hot cocoa. And, as said, if someone bought a ticket and the mountain can't deliver due to, say, a power outage, then a voucher is completely fine and a must for good customer service. Both, however, cost the mountain revenue.

No resort wants to be giving away things for free because it cuts revenue and devalues the full price product that others pay for, which leads me to address....

Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier. Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program. Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.

The one season I was not a passholder I became a fan of promos and everyone loves a bargain. But after talking to folks in the business, and some discussions in here, I have to disagree that constantly offering "free" or heavily discounted promotions is a good idea.

Set aside the whole bargain hunting thing for a minute and look at it from the mountain's perspective. In the summer and fall they offered season passes (and other mountains offer pre-buy programs). Those folks committed to the mountain and essentially paid for the privilege of skiing as many days as the resort is open. Now few, if anyone, skis the entire season. Most folks are going to ski a certain number of days, and the mountain knows that and sets the pass price accordingly. Say they figure that folks, on average, will ski ten days and paid $500 per pass. That is $50 per day that these folks have committed.

The typical business model used season passes as the revenue to get the snowmaking down and the mountain open. Day tickets were what helped cover other expenses and contributed, in a good season, to a profit. Those folks, of course, pay more for their tickets.

However, we all know that surprisingly not many pay the full window price. Resorts offer promos, lodging packages, etc. So, considering the discounts they offer and other promos, they have a set rack rate that they can generally count on for these tickets.

I'm getting way to complicated, so I'm going to cut to the chase. Yeah, having free days and other deep discounts makes guys like Billski happy, but there are a lot of serious downsides for a resort. First, you condition folks to always expect deep discounts and they will never buy the full window price, which is what you really want. Why the hell would I put down $59 for a Magic ticket if I know that they are running lots of discounts that I could easily find? I like ski areas, but I too have to be smart with my money. So now you have less daytrippers coming and paying the full rate. This results in less revenue, and a less loyal customer base because they're going to take discounts for granted and just go to the cheapest place.

Additionally, remember all those passholders I mentioned? Well, when they see these discounts and free promos, they are going to feel cheated because their pass is now worth less to them. Next season a portion of them will say "screw the pass, I'm going to wait for the day discounts." So that revenue is gone. It's a slippery slope.

Essentially the mountain has a fine line to walk in balancing out these interests and in trying to make a set amount per skier day so as not to encourage exteme bargain hunting, not to piss off passholders, and to entice regular folks to pay that window price.

Obviously a promo here and there is great for good will and to get folks to come and check the place out, but you can't condition them to always expect a free or really cheap day because they will not come otherwise and you won't have enough money to turn the lifts.

Free is great for the skier, but not for the mountain. Lots of places have learned this...my home mountain, Burke, being one of them. And a place like Magic, which, let's face it is really struggling, has to be very careful not to give away the store.

 

[soposkier]

I thought that those who bought a day ticket were given a voucher and passholders were given a food voucher? Is that not the case? If they are giving free day tickets to season passholders, than that is a different story and not a good idea at all. As someone else here said the standard MO in the business is if a lift breaks down, and folks are caught on it or really disadvantaged, you give them a free coffee or hot cocoa. And, as said, if someone bought a ticket and the mountain can't deliver due to, say, a power outage, then a voucher is completely fine and a must for good customer service. Both, however, cost the mountain revenue.

No resort wants to be giving away things for free because it cuts revenue and devalues the full price product that others pay for, which leads me to address....



The one season I was not a passholder I became a fan of promos and everyone loves a bargain. But after talking to folks in the business, and some discussions in here, I have to disagree that constantly offering "free" or heavily discounted promotions is a good idea.

Set aside the whole bargain hunting thing for a minute and look at it from the mountain's perspective. In the summer and fall they offered season passes (and other mountains offer pre-buy programs). Those folks committed to the mountain and essentially paid for the privilege of skiing as many days as the resort is open. Now few, if anyone, skis the entire season. Most folks are going to ski a certain number of days, and the mountain knows that and sets the pass price accordingly. Say they figure that folks, on average, will ski ten days and paid $500 per pass. That is $50 per day that these folks have committed.

The typical business model used season passes as the revenue to get the snowmaking down and the mountain open. Day tickets were what helped cover other expenses and contributed, in a good season, to a profit. Those folks, of course, pay more for their tickets.

However, we all know that surprisingly not many pay the full window price. Resorts offer promos, lodging packages, etc. So, considering the discounts they offer and other promos, they have a set rack rate that they can generally count on for these tickets.

I'm getting way to complicated, so I'm going to cut to the chase. Yeah, having free days and other deep discounts makes guys like Billski happy, but there are a lot of serious downsides for a resort. First, you condition folks to always expect deep discounts and they will never buy the full window price, which is what you really want. Why the hell would I put down $59 for a Magic ticket if I know that they are running lots of discounts that I could easily find? I like ski areas, but I too have to be smart with my money. So now you have less daytrippers coming and paying the full rate. This results in less revenue, and a less loyal customer base because they're going to take discounts for granted and just go to the cheapest place.

Additionally, remember all those passholders I mentioned? Well, when they see these discounts and free promos, they are going to feel cheated because their pass is now worth less to them. Next season a portion of them will say "screw the pass, I'm going to wait for the day discounts." So that revenue is gone. It's a slippery slope.

Essentially the mountain has a fine line to walk in balancing out these interests and in trying to make a set amount per skier day so as not to encourage exteme bargain hunting, not to piss off passholders, and to entice regular folks to pay that window price.

Obviously a promo here and there is great for good will and to get folks to come and check the place out, but you can't condition them to always expect a free or really cheap day because they will not come otherwise and you won't have enough money to turn the lifts.

Free is great for the skier, but not for the mountain. Lots of places have learned this...my home mountain, Burke, being one of them. And a place like Magic, which, let's face it is really struggling, has to be very careful not to give away the store.

Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase. Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?

 

[thetrailboss]

Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase. Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?

A long time ago we had someone discussing this from the industry and, surprisingly, the average amount per day ticket that the needed to get was very low. In this case, I'd imagine that Magic probably gets $35 after Liftopia takes its cut.

 

[billski]

Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase. Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?

Magic marketing in particular would rather have you buy direct from their web site so they don't incur the Liftopia charge.

TBD makes some great notice. I'm in business too, but skiing is expensive all around. However, many of the deals I find are really only to the advantage of the single or multi day skier. When I try to outfit my family of five for a day trip, it's hard to make it work - I'm fine with that. I also drink their drinks, eat their hamburgers. I do buy equipment, albeit small stuff like broken poles. I also have been known to pay $89 for a Stowe ticket in a pinch.

Most all the areas are now directly in the "bargain" game too. But they do limit options; most exclude Saturdays. Also demand management via Liftopia are working to increase what would be a variable skier count vs. fixed costs. Most resorts also limit the quantity of tickets available for a specific day, or may pull them all together. The airlines do this too on a higher and more sophisticated system.

I work hard to bring more peeps to places like Magic. Of course I want them to succeed, which means of course profits. I'm sure you also know I find a bunch of discounts I never bring to an open forum such as this. Other events I'm engaged in like the Point and the River programs benefit three: The skier (a lower price on a select one day), the resort (more advertising, more exposure, the hope for more return visits), the radio station (more ad revenue).

But to the chase, I'm with you all the way Trailboss - it is a fine line. I allude to that in my remark about precedent setting.

 

[Smellytele]

Actually Magic's website is linked to Liftopia

 

[thetrailboss]

Discounts and freebies only work for the resort if a skier comes back and pays the window rate or gets a pass. Otherwise it's break even or a loss. How often do you do that, Bill?

And it's nothing personal, just a rhetorical question that suggests why Magic is probably not going to go the free/discount route.

 

[skiNEwhere]

Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier. Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program. Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.

For pass holders, how about a special day opening (T, W, R)

Billski, what day begins with R? Russian Cosmonaut Day?:smile:

I think the word "free" has almost lost all meaning, especially to me. I've seen it so much in my life that the fact that something is actually "free" doesn't register with me, or if it does, I automatically assume there is a catch like when you get a "free" cell phone with "only" a 2 year contract.

If Magic had a deal where the promotion being mentioned only costs like .07 cents or something, I would be much more likely to notice it.

 

[thetrailboss]

**Breaking News**

Magic is reporting on their FB page that the Red Chair passed and will open tomorrow.

Carry on....