WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[from_the_NEK]

I'm sure ski patrollers do like to perform rescues. However, when those rescues start becoming a daily/nightly occurrence as they have recently, they get annoyed with them.
That said, in order for my deterrent fine system to work. The resorts have to put a more work into it as well. They would need to have signs at lifts, ticket windows, and commonly used side country access points that if you require rescue you could be fined up to $1000 dollars by the State of Vermont (I'm comfortable letting the state take the image hit for the policy rather than the resort). The resorts should also make sure the boundaries are clearly marked. I know that when I ski at Jay, even the boundary on the Dip/Orchard side of Timbuktu is very hard to miss. I'm curious if Scotty knew when he left the resort boundary during his escapade?

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

... you could be fined up to $1000 dollars by the State of Vermont...

Just wondering where this figure comes from? I always assumed a rescue would cost MUCH more...?

 

[AdironRider]

I'm sure ski patrollers do like to perform rescues. However, when those rescues start becoming a daily/nightly occurrence as they have recently, they get annoyed with them.
That said, in order for my deterrent fine system to work. The resorts have to put a more work into it as well. They would need to have signs at lifts, ticket windows, and commonly used side country access points that if you require rescue you could be fined up to $1000 dollars by the State of Vermont (I'm comfortable letting the state take the image hit for the policy rather than the resort). The resorts should also make sure the boundaries are clearly marked. I know that when I ski at Jay, even the boundary on the Dip/Orchard side of Timbuktu is very hard to miss. I'm curious if Scotty knew when he left the resort boundary during his escapade?

So the resorts need to take on the costs?

Honestly, an orange rope line isnt enough? I dont see how this would work without posting a tree every five feet or building a massive true fence around the ski area boundary.

 

[AdironRider]

I would also love to see the cumulative amount of money spent on rescues.

Arguably, its relatively small compared to other areas of the state budget with some fluff no?

Again, before we jump to conclusions that this is now reality, lets take a step back and give a bit more time before changing the system. I dont think its unreasonable to think that there were an above average amount of incidents due to record attendance numbers. It should be expected that the amount of rescues or ski patrol situations would increase as well.

 

[fbrissette]

I know that when I ski at Jay, even the boundary on the Dip/Orchard side of Timbuktu is very hard to miss. I'm curious if Scotty knew when he left the resort boundary during his escapade?

I have skied a lot of ski resorts in the East, West and Europe and I think you have to be either intoxicated or the world's most absent-minded person to end up in the backcountry unknowingly.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Just wondering where this figure comes from? I always assumed a rescue would cost MUCH more...?

We aren't talking about paying for the full rescue here but rather a deterrent fine. The $1000 and $500 amounts seemed to me like somewhat reasonable figures to be a deterrent while not bankrupting anyone. Once a few people get hit with these fines, word will get out and these guys are going to start thinking twice about ducking the boundary rope. Extra deterrent includes pictures of offenders and a running $ amount on a board in the base lodge with a caption

Don't be "that" guy. Don't go out of bounds."

 

[from_the_NEK]

So the resorts need to take on the costs?

Honestly, an orange rope line isnt enough? I dont see how this would work without posting a tree every five feet or building a massive true fence around the ski area boundary.

As long as the orange rope line is in good condition and not too high or buried in the snow it should be plenty. Save the signs for common exit points.

 

[thetrailboss]

FWIW in the past, my observation is that NH Fish and Game regularly spends about $15-20k on mountain rescues, especially when choppers are used.

 

[BenedictGomez]

How many of these people needing rescue are VT residents? .

Dunno if they keep statistics on that sort of thing, but FWIW the only person directly referenced in that article is a Vermont resident (Charlotte).

 

[from_the_NEK]

I would also love to see the cumulative amount of money spent on rescues.

Arguably, its relatively small compared to other areas of the state budget with some fluff no?

Again, before we jump to conclusions that this is now reality, lets take a step back and give a bit more time before changing the system. I dont think its unreasonable to think that there were an above average amount of incidents due to record attendance numbers. It should be expected that the amount of rescues or ski patrol situations would increase as well.

Agreed that this is something that should be looked at applying in the future. But with the development of fat skis that makes skiing the backcoutry powder that much easier and more desirable, I don't see the numbers decreasing anytime soon (unless we geta major thaw/freeze event).
With record attendances, I would expect inbounds ski patrol situations would increase. If they are off trying to rescue the idiots that are going out of bounds, it may decrease patrols ability to respond to the inbounds situations.

 

[AdironRider]

FWIW NH Fish and Game regularly spend about $15-20k on mountain rescues, especially when choppers are used.

Word.

So subtracting 30% for inefficiencies of govt that sounds about right.

So even if every one of these lost skiers and riders cost the state 15k each, were talking about a grand total of like 700k here. Thats what, one or two days budget for the Burlington PD? Ultimately a drop in the bucket in the worst case scenario, and based on the article the actual costs of these past few weeks were probably less than half that amount.

Is 350k really that big a deal? Is the 45k in propsed fines really going to make a difference? My thought is no.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Dunno if they keep statistics on that sort of thing, but FWIW the only person directly referenced in that article is a Vermont resident (Charlotte).

That is the one guy that needed rescuing at Bolton which is also the closest ski area to Burlington which is where WCAX is based. I'm pretty sure the large majority that have required rescue at Killington and Pico are from S New England and NJ from the news stories I've read. I figure it is currently something like a 40 to 1 (non-resident to resident) ratio this year.

 

[fbrissette]

Word.


Is 350k really that big a deal? Is the 45k in propsed fines really going to make a difference? My thought is no.

So what do you propose ? Status quo ? Education ? Take ski passes away ?

 

[AdironRider]

Agreed that this is something that should be looked at applying in the future. But with the development of fat skis that makes skiing the backcoutry powder that much easier and more desirable, I don't see the numbers decreasing anytime soon (unless we geta major thaw/freeze event).
With record attendances, I would expect inbounds ski patrol situations would increase. If they are off trying to rescue the idiots that are going out of bounds, it may decrease patrols ability to respond to the inbounds situations.

I can see your points on fat skis and the increased interest certainly playing a role in these situations becoming more prevalent. No doubt there. My point is more not to overreact based on a very small sample size.

 

[AdironRider]

So what do you propose ? Status quo ? Education ? Take ski passes away ?

Ultimately I dont think this is a situation that needs a proposal. I dont think that spending 350k to potentially save 45 lives is so out of this world and financially crippling that it requires a solution. I mean, my 45 mil a year company saved almost that much just in reducing paper/recycling waste this past year. Imagine on a state level.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Word.

So subtracting 30% for inefficiencies of govt that sounds about right.

So even if every one of these lost skiers and riders cost the state 15k each, were talking about a grand total of like 700k here. Thats what, one or two days budget for the Burlington PD? Ultimately a drop in the bucket in the worst case scenario, and based on the article the actual costs of these past few weeks were probably less than half that amount.

Is 350k really that big a deal? Is the 45k in propsed fines really going to make a difference? My thought is no.

I'm not suggesting the fine is supposed to pay for the rescue. It is a deterrent.
So if you figure $350k for the total statewide rescue bill for this winter. With 30K in fines (remember some people aren't fined and others are only fined $500). That 30K may actually make up some of the difference to pay for the overtime the agencies are putting in. This would keep the agencies from having to ask for more money next year. Additionally, if the deterrent part of this works the way I figure, hopefully the total rescue bill goes down to 200k next year with only 15k in fines.

 

[AdironRider]

I'm not suggesting the fine is supposed to pay for the rescue. It is a deterrent.
So if you figure $350k for the total statewide rescue bill for this winter. With 30K in fines (remember some people aren't fined and others are only fined $500). That 30K may actually make up some of the difference to pay for the overtime the agencies are putting in. This would keep the agencies from having to ask for more money next year. Additionally, if the deterrent part of this works the way I figure, hopefully the total rescue bill goes down to 200k next year with only 15k in fines.

Fair enough, I can see the logic here. I also agree that we should certainly make an effort to minimize these situations going forward. I think we just disagree on the means of how to do so.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

We aren't talking about paying for the full rescue here but rather a deterrent fine. The $1000 and $500 amounts seemed to me like somewhat reasonable figures to be a deterrent while not bankrupting anyone. Once a few people get hit with these fines, word will get out and these guys are going to start thinking twice about ducking the boundary rope. Extra deterrent includes pictures of offenders and a running $ amount on a board in the base lodge with a caption

Does anyone know what a typical rescue cost regardless of what the proposed fine here would be?

I'm not sure about the pictures of past rescuees as deterrent. Between that and a interview/question session/interrogation by Police and Patrol you make it sound as if skiers, even if they are ill-prepared for BC and shouldn't be out there, are criminals who are breaking a law.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Does anyone know what a typical rescue cost regardless of what the proposed fine here would be?

I'm not sure about the pictures of past rescuees as deterrent. Between that and a interview/question session/interrogation by Police and Patrol you make it sound as if skiers, even if they are ill-prepared for BC and shouldn't be out there, are criminals who are breaking a law.

Mugshot style pictures would be a bit much

Some general wide shot pictures of rescued skier/riders standing around rescue personel may be sufficient to get attention.

And a 4 question post rescue interview is hardly an interrogation. Again, the rescued party(s) never go in front of the review panel. They simply answer the 4 questions and go home (or the hospital).

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Here is an article which cites costs associated with rescues in the Tetons. It also has a section where it proposes special use Fees up to $500 dollars per person to cover rescue costs. It is referencing climbers not skiers but it applies to our conversation.

http://wyofile.com/2011/05/teton-rescue-cost/