Summer 2017 Resort Upgrades

[benski]

Not really construction but an improvement. Sugarbush rebranded Timbers to Rumble's Kitchen, with new menu, manager and vibe. I hope it is good, I would much rather be in there than the Pub. Fingers crossed!

I think most importantly it will reset the Yelp review. The place has 3 stars which meanwhile all the other restaurants in the valley have 4-5.

 

[thetrailboss]

I forgot about the tram thing to Baldy- is it designed so you ski just Alta side or can you drop into Snowbird? I might have the geogaphy off.

I was wondering if the locals would be pissed about more traffic in Supreme but if the lift was having issues then it sounds like a good idea. It ran fine when I was there and I really liked the terrain up there. Makes more sense layout wise without Cecret.

So the proposal was an 8-10 person tram, similar to Snowbasin's, that would leave from the top of Collins and end on the summit of Baldy. From there it is really easy to ski right down into Snowbird. In fact, you can do it with no cliffs. For me, an Alta-Bird Passholder, that would be cool. But I do enjoy hiking up there as it is.

Supreme: I think that it was a "poor man's express lift" that was upgraded right around the time that they did Sugarloaf and Collins. I will miss Cecret, but that lift was WAY underused. Supreme, IMHO, worked just fine. That said, it was a Frankenlift with multiple parts including Yan towers and terminals and I bet it was getting aged.

 

[thetrailboss]

Here is where Alta has posted their plans: http://www.alta.com/the-mountain/future-plans

Here is their NFS notice: http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155....com/11558/www/nepa/103726_FSPLT3_3033529.pdf

 

[machski]

The Boyne rumor from this spring said no capital improvement money, zero, available this summer outside of the announced projects at SR. Expect a big announcement at some point for spring of 2018 when the new lease holder will pony up some cash. Word is gondola replacement at Loon, and maybe the new pulse gondy will finally go in at South Peak. Have not heard any Loaf news yet. Only a rumor but from someone in the know.

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Correct, SR's Spruce replacement was carved and scraped together $$ wise last fall. Anticipate a courtship period with O-Z before you see any capital investment. My source close suggested two more years of waiting before you see any capital moving at Boyne east resorts. That could obviously change in any direction.

As to Loon, I very much doubt a Gondi replacement first. They have a severe need to put in the learner's pod on South first and foremost. Not only is it for that, that is to become the public Access point at South. The pulse gondola is not being installed by Loon, rather by the Loon Riverwalk development as I understand it. I do not believe the public will have access to it, it will be for Riverwalk owners/guests to get across the river. But it won't go in until the learner pod does as it terminates at the new base of south (this relying on the new learner quads for full uphill access).

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[bdfreetuna]

Wow, it sounds like Loon is getting some love. Twenty years ago who would have thought that Loon Mountain would overtake Sugarloaf as the superior resort.

Just wait until the Flume/Lincoln/Lafayette across the road expansion.

 

[Smellytele]

Wow, it sounds like Loon is getting some love. Twenty years ago who would have thought that Loon Mountain would overtake Sugarloaf as the superior resort.

Still a ways to go before that but they are getting some love. Some love is better than abandonment.

 

[Jully]

Still a ways to go before that but they are getting some love. Some love is better than abandonment.

Agreed. Superior resort is also relative only to facilities. Unless Loon does a major expansion and develops its own Burnt Mountain equivalent, it will never be superior to the Loaf in that way.

Even for facilities though, the village at SL is a nice draw. Lift situation and luxury accommodations clearly go to Loon though.

 

[chuckstah]

Correct, SR's Spruce replacement was carved and scraped together $$ wise last fall. Anticipate a courtship period with O-Z before you see any capital investment. My source close suggested two more years of waiting before you see any capital moving at Boyne east resorts. That could obviously change in any direction.

As to Loon, I very much doubt a Gondi replacement first. They have a severe need to put in the learner's pod on South first and foremost. Not only is it for that, that is to become the public Access point at South. The pulse gondola is not being installed by Loon, rather by the Loon Riverwalk development as I understand it. I do not believe the public will have access to it, it will be for Riverwalk owners/guests to get across the river. But it won't go in until the learner pod does as it terminates at the new base of south (this relying on the new learner quads for full uphill access).

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Good points. Hopefully South Peak gets finished before the need for a gondola replacement, but I'll add a bit more of what I've heard. Again only a rumor at this point but here it is. The gondola is nearing the end of it's useful life and NEEDS to be replaced at the end of next season. It will be 30 years old, with towers from 1966 by next spring. The lift will be scrapped, not sold. I have heard even more details on timeline and estimated cost, but won't elaborate as things can and will change. This could all be wrong, but sources are good. It may come down to a refurb band-aid approach if the funds are not there, but Boyne and accidents on old lifts really doesn't need to make the news. Again.

Edited to add a link to the S. Peak expansion map. 2 years old at this point
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8724/16291268943_fa38c8505d_z.jpg

 

[deadheadskier]

Does the gondola see much use during summer? I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead. If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?

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[Smellytele]

Does the gondola see much use during summer? I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead. If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?

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Their clientele like gondolas.

 

[benski]

I think the less into skiing you are the more into gondolas, hence why they are much more popular for summer lifts than winter.

 

[machski]

Does the gondola see much use during summer? I'm sure many folks would rather see a chair go in instead. If they do need it for scenic rides, maybe copy the Wildcat model?

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Yes, it is in daily operations in the summer and then obviously for peeper season as well.

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[drjeff]

Hands down, as resorts look to increase their 4 season business, and for many that also includes the lucrative wedding business, having an enclosed lift that can transport a bunch of guests to a mountain top destination for a function in a comfortable, dry manor, regardless of the weather outside is a solid selling point.

Hence why I'm guessing that you'll see more and more "primary" lifts either being bubbles or a gondola/chondola type setup at resorts where they're looking to expand their 4 season business and it's time for either a primary lift upgrade or new installation of a lift that runs from a base area up to an area where there's a lodge in the immediate unloading area over the next decade. We also have to remember than many of the primary lifts in New England are 20+ years old now, so replacement time, and the potential that that can bring, I'm sure is on the minds of many a resort owner and GM these days....

 

[deadheadskier]

I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.

Wildcats setup really is ideal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola. I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up. Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.

Unless Loon feels like there is an opportunity to bring in after hours revenue at the small summit lodge, I would think either doing what Wildcat has done or installing a Chondola is the better choice than just a standard Gondola.

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[thetrailboss]

I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.

Wildcats setup really is ideal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola. I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up. Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.

Unless Loon feels like there is an opportunity to bring in after hours revenue at the small summit lodge, I would think either doing what Wildcat has done or installing a Chondola is the better choice than just a standard Gondola.

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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the Gondola cabs were bought second-hand, yes?

 

[thetrailboss]

I think the less into skiing you are the more into gondolas, hence why they are much more popular for summer lifts than winter.

Exactly. Non-skiers just do not have any experience, or comfort, with chairlifts.

 

[Smellytele]

Hands down, as resorts look to increase their 4 season business, and for many that also includes the lucrative wedding business, having an enclosed lift that can transport a bunch of guests to a mountain top destination for a function in a comfortable, dry manor, regardless of the weather outside is a solid selling point.

Hence why I'm guessing that you'll see more and more "primary" lifts either being bubbles or a gondola/chondola type setup at resorts where they're looking to expand their 4 season business and it's time for either a primary lift upgrade or new installation of a lift that runs from a base area up to an area where there's a lodge in the immediate unloading area over the next decade. We also have to remember than many of the primary lifts in New England are 20+ years old now, so replacement time, and the potential that that can bring, I'm sure is on the minds of many a resort owner and GM these days....

With concern with the bubbles - they are good on cold windy days but they are like being in a room with a bad view. Seeing out of them is never very good and are either blue or orange in the north east, distorting your view.

 

[Jully]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the Gondola cabs were bought second-hand, yes?

I know the cabins were purchased after the initial HSQ was installed, but I do not know if they were used or not.

 

[goldenboy80]

I think the rationale for including one or several gondolas at a resort is increasing for four-season use as many have mentioned. I think they also serve other important functions: i) every resort should have a flagship lift for the purposes of marketing/branding, ii) cold and wet weather is a deterrent for both occasional and frequent skiers, iii) face-to-face 8-person seating makes skiing a more social sport, iv) non-skiers in the summer or beginning skiers in the winter may feel safer in an enclosed cabin, iv) enclosed cabins facilitate additional amenities such as heaters or audio systems (ski resorts need to innovate to grow), and v) provide mid-mountain or summit access to other revenue generating facilities that may appeal to skiers and non-skiers alike. Ski resorts have always been capital-intensive recreational facilities appealing primarily to those with disposable income. With the consolidation of ski resorts and introduction of professional management at smaller, local ski resorts, the stakes have been raised. Corporations like Vail Resorts, Powdr Corp, Boyne, etc, have access to cheap capital. As more east coast resorts fall under their purview, it will be interesting to see which east coast resorts are recipients of this capital, because in the long-run, it will determine which resorts thrive and which become "also-ran" resorts. The stark contrast between the development of Stratton and Magic Mountain comes to mind. Invest, innovate, and pray for snow.

 

[Jully]

I'd be curious what the cost difference is between a setup like Wildcat's with a HSQ and summer Gondi cabins and just a standard Gondola.

Wildcats setup really is ideal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a HSQ has roughly the same uphill capacity as an 8 person gondola at 2400 people per hour. At least that's what I read the capacity is for Stowes gondola. I'm guessing the effective capacity is better for a HSQ as typically fewer empty seats go up. Then you also need to factor in that a chair runs better in high winds.

Unless Loon feels like there is an opportunity to bring in after hours revenue at the small summit lodge, I would think either doing what Wildcat has done or installing a Chondola is the better choice than just a standard Gondola.

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Are chondolas cheaper than a gondola? I agree with you that the Wildcat setup is the best, the chairs and gondolas also will both last longer.

I do not see Loon ever installing a chairlift to replace their gondola though. Like others have said, Loon is known for their gondola and I think many people ski Loon over surrounding areas in part for their gondola.