SuperPasses 20/21

abc · Feb 27, 2020

AdironRider said:
The CO/UT skier can spend 2 tanks of gas, sleep in their Subaru (or couch surf), and brown bag it and get a Jackson weekend in for under 100 bucks. Those dirtbags do nothing for us but make the skiing experience worse.

That's what the JH locals bitch about the loudest when I was there!

And I seriously think many of the CO skiers will NOT pay that $150 extra. It's a long drive. And they've got plenty of skiing closer to home, where "home" may actually be their second home that are far more comfortable than the backseat of their Subaru. And it's no longer "free"!

Not sure about the SLC skiers though. They've got their "home mountain" totally screwed up with no place to park etc. Whether they'll pay the extra $150 for a couple weekends of JH is a toss up.

Edd · Feb 27, 2020

thetrailboss said:
I wish I wasn't to be honest.

Considering all options for next season. Maybe taking a year off from LCC is not a bad idea after all.

Yeah, man do it. Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to deal with. At least you’ve got more options than the JH locals.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

abc said:
That's what the JH locals bitch about the loudest when I was there!

And I seriously think many of the CO skiers will NOT pay that $150 extra. It's a long drive. And they've got plenty of skiing closer to home, where "home" may actually be their second home that are far more comfortable than the backseat of their Subaru. And it's no longer "free"!

Not sure about the SLC skiers though. They've got their "home mountain" totally screwed up with no place to park etc. Whether they'll pay the extra $150 for a couple weekends of JH is a toss up.

I was going to say that there are probably a fair number of UT plates at JH from folks hitting the IKON train.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

Just talked with a buddy of mine who went to the SkiUtah Board Meeting yesterday. Talk about an echo chamber, spin room, or whatever you want to call it and people drunk off their own Kool Aid.

Solitude's manager, an Alterra Employee, complained about how unfair the media is in portraying the problem. While there was congestion on President's Weekend, and the weekends are a mess, "look at all the room to park and ski here on a Wednesday." Ugh.

They also said that they are "working" on a transit solution, but when asked where they are going to park cars, they didn't have an answer let alone have even considered it.

In all, as BG said, completely incompetent. Or doing one hell of a job pleading ignorance. It is convenient though--make a ton of money, create huge problems, and shrug because the traffic problem isn't yours to fix, it is the local community's problem.

jaytrem · Feb 27, 2020

thetrailboss said:
I wish I wasn't to be honest.

Considering all options for next season. Maybe taking a year off from LCC is not a bad idea after all.

Is there any good SLC full season option anymore? Would you consider relocating? You said your friends actually moved up to MT, correct?

snoseek · Feb 27, 2020

Will this coming winter be the 3rd for lcc on the ikon? Does altabird have a 3 year contract? I would live to see at least alta get off this thing. I remember back in the 90s you had to enter a lottery to hope to even purchase a pass there. The difference between then and now is crazy.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

snoseek said:
Will this coming winter be the 3rd for lcc on the ikon? Does altabird have a 3 year contract? I would live to see at least alta get off this thing. I remember back in the 90s you had to enter a lottery to hope to even purchase a pass there. The difference between then and now is crazy.

This is the third season; someone else mentioned a 3-year commitment in here, but as with everything else related to Alterra, nobody is disclosing the terms of the deal.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

jaytrem said:
Is there any good SLC full season option anymore? Would you consider relocating? You said your friends actually moved up to MT, correct?

Not moving. Yes, friends are in MT and we have a free place to stay up there. Not an every weekend solution.

drjeff · Feb 27, 2020

thetrailboss said:
Just talked with a buddy of mine who went to the SkiUtah Board Meeting yesterday. Talk about an echo chamber, spin room, or whatever you want to call it and people drunk off their own Kool Aid.

Solitude's manager, an Alterra Employee, complained about how unfair the media is in portraying the problem. While there was congestion on President's Weekend, and the weekends are a mess, "look at all the room to park and ski here on a Wednesday." Ugh.

They also said that they are "working" on a transit solution, but when asked where they are going to park cars, they didn't have an answer let alone have even considered it.

In all, as BG said, completely incompetent. Or doing one hell of a job pleading ignorance. It is convenient though--make a ton of money, create huge problems, and shrug because the traffic problem isn't yours to fix, it is the local community's problem.

Some spin while wearing rose colored glasses? For sure

However the reality is that most every ski resort out there has the capacity for their facility to handle more people on all but maybe 10 to 20 days of the season and if one looks at year round operations/operation potential, there's probably 340 to 350 days a year where they would love to get more people on the property for whatever reason. They are in the ski business afterall.

As consumers, we often hate the crowds (while often also enjoy the costs savings) that the mega passes have brought for many of us. If we were on the corporate side of the ski industry, we'd probably look at it as "we're now having more days where we're at full capacity than ever before, lets keep building on this..."

Where will this all end/play out/come back to reality? Who knows....

BenedictGomez · Feb 27, 2020

snoseek said:
back in the 90s you had to enter a lottery to hope to even purchase a pass there. The difference between then and now is crazy.

What was that all about?

BenedictGomez · Feb 27, 2020

jaytrem said:
Is there any good SLC full season option anymore? Would you consider relocating?

The fact this is something to even ponder is staggering. My wife & I have recently been considering moving our budding family out west, and are considering & researching places like Utah & Idaho. If we did choose Utah, we'd move to the Back, so perhaps it's slightly less of a consideration, but I wonder how many people (locals and tourists) are beginning to consider the Utah ski scene.....ehhh...... not sure what the correct term is, but "impaired" or "damaged" maybe?

abc · Feb 27, 2020

thetrailboss said:
Just talked with a buddy of mine who went to the SkiUtah Board Meeting yesterday. Talk about an echo chamber, spin room, or whatever you want to call it and people drunk off their own Kool Aid.
...
It is convenient though--make a ton of money, create huge problems, and shrug because the traffic problem isn't yours to fix, it is the local community's problem.

You think this is unique to UT? Buddy of mine is working in a local transit system in Colorado. You should hear what she has to say about Vail is doing to the local traffic! She has trouble just getting to work! And we're talking about a broad valley there, not a constricted barely-wide-enough-to-put-in-2-lane-road valley!

BenedictGomez said:
but I wonder how many people (locals and tourists) are beginning to consider the Utah ski scene.....ehhh...... not sure what the correct term is, but "impaired" or "damaged" maybe?

Ah, but what are your choices? Denver? Do you prefer fire or hot oil...

As a New Yorker transplanted from overseas, I always found this whole attitude of "transit is for the poor" in 99% of this country appallingly shortsighted. The days of having plenty of land to build highways and parking lots had long gone (gone a couple decades back). But people just refuse to accept it.

Rant over.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

abc said:
You think this is unique to UT? Buddy of mine is working in a local transit system in Colorado. You should hear what she has to say about Vail is doing to the local traffic! She has trouble just getting to work! And we're talking about a broad valley there, not a constricted barely-wide-enough-to-put-in-2-lane-road valley!

Colorado for sure.

IKON has, however, created a lot of issues in areas that didn't have it.

abc · Feb 27, 2020

thetrailboss said:
IKON has, however, created a lot of issues in areas that didn't have it.

Sorry, these issues had been brewing for a long time for the SLC area.

Yes, Ikon made it explode! But had they not been in such an echo chamber for the last 10 or more years, perhaps Ikon would have been the icing on a cake instead of its current status of fly on the ornament?

BTW, Colorado had been blaming Vail just the same way you guys are blaming Ikon. Only they've been bitching about it but not doing much for far longer. So you guys get can look to Colorado to see what's ahead

AdironRider · Feb 27, 2020

abc said:
Sorry, these issues had been brewing for a long time for the SLC area.

Yes, Ikon made it explode! But had they not been in such an echo chamber for the last 10 or more years, perhaps Ikon would have been the icing on a cake instead of its current status of fly on the ornament?

BTW, Colorado had been blaming Vail just the same way you guys are blaming Ikon. Only they've been bitching about it but not doing much for far longer. So you guys get can look to Colorado to see what's ahead

Both the Denver and SLC metro areas have been experiencing massive growth. It really has been a sight to behold the past 15 or so years I've been here. There is a certain element of just a shitload of people are moving there.

However, Colorado has TABOR, which without going political, is specifically designed to limit the amount spent on infrastructure. Vail (and now Ikon with WP as the base) is dropping the ball by causing almost all of the crowding issues, not spending nearly enough to handle their impact on literally everyone else, all while knowing the state's hands are tied.

That is compared to UT, which has geographical limitations. I suspect in UT, they are going to tell Save Our Canyons to shove it and start building more resorts and interconnects. And in Colorado, their electorate is rapidly changing. It will be an interesting 20 years or so.

BenedictGomez · Feb 27, 2020

AdironRider said:
I suspect in UT, they are going to tell Save Our Canyons to shove it and start building more resorts and interconnects.

Save Our Canyons is a group which uses a bogus environmental cause in order to achieve its' true motive, which is keeping their backcountry playground free from the unwashed masses. Borderline evil & disingenuous as hell.

Where could Utah build new resorts though? I realize Mayfair will be a beginner/intermediate thing in a few years, but it seems to me that almost all the mountain areas suitable for ski resorts are government owned. There is that undeveloped land that's partly-owned by the Snowbird folks, but beyond that I dont know what could be built-out. I have heard there are places in Utah that could make for wonderful ski resorts though (if it were allowed).

AdironRider · Feb 27, 2020

I think the feds would roll over if the state handles the nimby's directly. They want their 3-6% cut and money talks, bullshit walks eventually.

Completely agree on SOC, and plenty of other like minded groups, which we have up here also. Completely selfish behavior.

abc · Feb 27, 2020

AdironRider said:
in Colorado, their electorate is rapidly changing. It will be an interesting 20 years or so.

I'll be very happy if I turn out to be wrong. But I'm pessimistic about it.

The only reason the east has infrastructure to handle the population growth was because it got developed a century ago, before Nimbysm took hold.

Yes, the population had exploded rapidly in the west. But in my view, the infrastructure didn't just lack behind, it didn't even try to catch up because those who are already there chose to bury their heads in the sand.

I lived in the west coast for a few years. That attitude is everywhere, in every aspect of the "community", which is less of a community but rather a collection of reluctant "accidental neighbors"

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

abc said:
Sorry, these issues had been brewing for a long time for the SLC area.

My comments were not just about the Wasatch areas. Crystal, Jackson Hole, Aspen, and Deer Valley didn't have crowding issues before IKON.....

Yes, Ikon made it explode! But had they not been in such an echo chamber for the last 10 or more years, perhaps Ikon would have been the icing on a cake instead of its current status of fly on the ornament?

The State tourism marketing arm has realized that their efforts with the "Big 5" and other marketing promotions have led to a lot of crowding problems. At last check the State was planning on dialing back the marketing this year.

thetrailboss · Feb 27, 2020

abc said:
I'll be very happy if I turn out to be wrong. But I'm pessimistic about it.

The only reason the east has infrastructure to handle the population growth was because it got developed a century ago, before Nimbysm took hold.

Yes, the population had exploded rapidly in the west. But in my view, the infrastructure didn't just lack behind, it didn't even try to catch up because those who are already there chose to bury their heads in the sand.

I lived in the west coast for a few years. That attitude is everywhere, in every aspect of the "community", which is less of a community but rather a collection of reluctant "accidental neighbors"

OK, hold on....I think you're conflating issues and creating confusion. Are there any major east coast metro areas that are within 30 miles of at least two or three ski areas? I'm not talking about Burlington, Vermont or even Portland, Maine. I'm talking of cities on the order of metro areas of 1 million or so? I'll save you the trouble--the answer is no. The only resort that may be comparable is Wachusett and the Boston crowd, but that is ONE resort. The NE has a lot of resorts spread out over a large area; here we have 1.2 million within literally 1-2 hour drive of eight major ski resorts. And in geographically/topographically tough areas to access.

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