• Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!

    You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!

All Mountain Skis That Are Great In Moguls

CS2-6

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
22
Points
0
Location
Frantically crawling out of the backseat
Long-time...first-time...
I've posted this question on two other forums, but am looking to get as wide a cross-section of opinions as possible. So I apologize if any of yall have seen a very similar post elsewhere. I almost never ski the Northeast, but I'm posting here specifically because this seems to be the place on the internet where mogul skiing is most alive now, with mogulskiing.net defunct.

I looked at all the relevant threads I could find, but didn't come across an answer. Besides, everyone's situation is a little different; and really, what's one more thread on the pile.

Height: 5'11"
Weight: 165lbs
Ability: Expert (If we're being honest with each other, "Advanced")
Location (skiing): Southwestern Colorado (exclusively)
Days on the Snow: 6-10/year

I spend 85% of my time on moguls, but 15% of the time I end up skiing through some crud and tracked out powder because the folks I ski with get tired of all the moguls all the time.

If I'm ever lucky enough for a powder day, I'll rent some fat things. I never go fast on the groomers, so I don't need stability at speed or long, GS turns.

The consensus of past advice has been to save the money of skis and spend it on more days on the snow and possibly lessons. That's fine except the skis I like aren't terribly well stocked in rental shops. Shops that have any usually have the Kinks, but they're all getting a little old (5 seasons now), and they were a soft "freestyle" ski out of the box. And if a shop has a second model, it's usually the Smash7s, which are newer, but set up weird (see below). But, if any of yall still think my money would be better spent on elsewhere, just let me know.

I'm looking for an all-mountain (~80-90mm underfoot, 100 at most) ski that I will really like in the bumps and that I will not really hate in the crud.

I get the impression that the type of ski that works well in the moguls depends a lot on how the skier attacks the moguls. I'm trying to improve, but I know I'm 34 and only ski a week or two a year, so I'll never be anything close to a hot doggin' World Cupper.

Here's a couple videos of me skiing down some blue moguls. Just to give yall an idea of my ability and style:

My research shows I want a torsionally stiff ski, with a soft tip (and tail?, still not sure on that part), and traditional camber.

A few years ago when I asked a similar question on other forums, some folks said "just get mogul skis and deal with them in conditions they're not designed for". I was originally hesitant to take this approach because I'd been on the Volkl Mogul Wall and absolutely hated them, in the backseat the entire day. Last season; however, I tried a pair of 4FRNT Originators and absolutely loved them on some skied off blue bumps. I dunno if I got better or if the Mogul Walls are that much stiffer than the Originators. And I'm not sold on the idea that a pair of dedicated bump skis would make a good single quiver for someone like me, but I'm more open to the idea now. Going by that, here's the "short" list of contenders:

Line Blend
Line Honeybadger - may be too flexy
K2 Shreditor - some reviews suggest they may be too rockered
Rossignol Scratch - skied an old pair of these (naked lady silhouette) and liked them (but they were pretty flexed out and the snow was pretty skied off), but not sure I'd enjoy them in any sort of powder or crud. I understand the current model may be too rockered.
Fat-ypus D'root
Fat-ypus G'Butter
4Frnt Vandal
4Frnt Originator
Dynastar Twisters
JSkis The AllPlay
Armada ARV86/ARV96
Armada B-Dog
Faction Prodigy 3.0
Moment PB&J
Lib-Tech Backwards
Head Caddy
Head Framewall - probably too stiff
Salomon Rocker2 - some reviews suggest they're stiffer than I'd like
Blizzard Bushwacker - everyone says these are the best all-mount mogul-bias skis, but it seems that the stiffness varies wildly year to year; they're returning for 2018, but I've got no idea how flexible they'll be
Salomon TNT - metal reinforced? if so, they're probably too stiff for my "style"
Volkl Kink - Skied these multiple years and liked them a lot, but maybe too soft in the tails, seemed like whenever my weight gets back, the tails kinda collapse and I crash (unintentional tail butter?). Probably too soft.
Rossignol Smash7 - I liked these except that the breaks on the rental sticks are too wide and cross each other, basically tying my laces together; if it hadn't happened to me about two times per day, I would've never thought it was possible

Do yall reckon that has to do with their technique being better or desire for more groomer performance and stability at speed?

Jesus Christ, that was a lot of preamble. Thanks for the help, yall.
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,738
Points
48
Location
Southeast NH
If 85% of my skiing was dedicated to moguls, then I would buy a mogul specific ski. Technique aside back seat issues in the bumps are usually the result of the tails of the skis being too soft.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 

Edd

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
5,453
Points
48
Location
Newmarket, NH
On your list I’ve only skied (and own) the Bushwackers, I think from 2015. I like them in bumps, my shitty technique aside. I would not recommend the current model. They’re notably stiffer, but a better bump skier could rock them, I’m sure. I’m your height and 10 pounds heavier, skiing in a 180 length. I’d be curious to try the 173 when it comes to bumps.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone
 

Jully

Active member
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Messages
2,483
Points
38
Location
Boston, MA
If 85% of my skiing was dedicated to moguls, then I would buy a mogul specific ski. Technique aside back seat issues in the bumps are usually the result of the tails of the skis being too soft.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

Really? I actually did not know this. I've never tried a dedicated mogul ski and this makes me curious.
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
Given your skiing style, location, and described terrain, I'm going to go rogue and say none of the above. I don't see the need for a mogul specific ski.

At 6-10 days per year, you're not going to get the conditioning, muscle memory and skill development to make a dedicated mogul ski shine. Your technique is not at all what mogul skis are designed for.

I would go with a good all mountain ski that you like, and forget bump specific, even though bumps is mostly what you ski. Lots of combinations of flex, width and camber out there to choose from.

There's a lot you're doing right, head up, shoulders down the hill, smooth core. The line you choose, the degree and type of skidding, and where you pressure the ski tells me you need some coaching in those areas.

Lets look at some photos:


CS2 a.jpg

Here cresting a small bump, look at your lower leg. There is no forward shin pressure.



CS2 a.jpg

A few seconds later in the stop, weight way back.



CS2 c.jpg

Look at your skis. They are divergent. Ask yourself what is going on, what leads to this, and where your pressure (fore and aft, left and right) on the skis is. This is 9 seconds in on the second video, just as you finish a turn to your right.


'Don't get me wrong. Buy the skis you like, and perhaps you will grow into the pair you buy. What I am saying is you aren't yet where you can make the best evaluation on what those skis should be. Get some coaching on edging, timing, hip position and stance in general, weight distribution, perfecting your turn and different kinds of turns, line selection and honing your ability to ski different lines of the same bump.

If you only can get out there 6-10 times a year (a sin for someone who lives in Colorado) read mogul books & watch mogul videos to make the most of your time on hill, there's lots of material out there. Look at Pugski.com, tons of mogul advice and videos there. Find a good mogul coach or instructor. Take at least 3 classes in those 10 days. Get more video of yourself, (preferably better quality video*) and study it.


*Better resolution, closer up with telephoto, shot from mid bump field, not the bottom, shot both coming and going.
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,738
Points
48
Location
Southeast NH
Really? I actually did not know this. I've never tried a dedicated mogul ski and this makes me curious.
It's easier to maintain forward shin pressure as you come into the bump in the absorption phase. When you go into the extension phase coming up over the bump and skiing tall, that's when you are most likely to fall into the backseat as your weight position becomes more neutral. Having soft tails exasperates the potential for this. Stiffer tails create more of a platform to balance on as you move to drive yourself forward again down into the trough to re-enter the absorption phase.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 

tumbler

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Messages
892
Points
18
I can only imagine the constructive feedback (ridicule) I would get if I posted a video of myself...:lol:
 

Siliconebobsquarepants

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,683
Points
48
Location
Lehigh County Pa.
Website
www.youtube.com
I can only imagine the constructive feedback (ridicule) I would get if I posted a video of myself...:lol:

Tumbler ? anything to do with your style ....;-) His skiing isn't bad . If I had to critique it would be a lil back seat and not enough knee bending.

edit . I'm sort of in the same boat as far as a ski need goes . So I'm glad the OP posted the subject.

I like a ski a little bit longer 170- 75 . like to let it roll every once in a while and enjoy a little extra stability . 165lbs 5'6" ...need to drop at least 10lbs . I really like moguls ,but Pa. is a bit tough usually icy dust on crust . So looking for suggestions too . although I would be looking for a previous year model as I'm cheap LOL.
 
Last edited:

Domeskier

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,054
Points
36
Location
New York
Tumbler ? anything to do with your style ....;-) His skiing isn't bad . If I had to critique it would be a lil back seat and not enough knee bending.

edit . I'm sort of in the same boat as far as a ski need goes . So I'm glad the OP posted the subject.

I like a ski a little bit longer 170- 75 . like to let it roll every once in a while and enjoy a little extra stability . 165lbs 5'6" ...need to drop at least 10lbs . I really like moguls ,but Pa. is a bit tough usually icy dust on crust . So looking for suggestions too . although I would be looking for a previous year model as I'm cheap LOL.

Dynastar Twisters are great on icy Pocono bumps. It takes a bit of effort to carve them on groomers. Never skied them in deep snow, but that's not likely to be an issue in PA.

That being said, I've seen plenty of people rip bumps on all kinds of skis. I wouldn't recommend a rockered ski for someone who spends a lot of time in bumps, but I think technique is far more important to good bump skiing than ski choice. A dedicated bump ski will probably be lighter and quicker edge to edge and will help you get out of the back seat when your technique flounders, but it won't dramatically improve your bump skiing the way a shaped ski will improve your carving or a rockered ski will improve your powder skiing.
 
Last edited:

Siliconebobsquarepants

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,683
Points
48
Location
Lehigh County Pa.
Website
www.youtube.com
Dynastar Twisters are great on icy Pocono bumps. It takes a bit of effort to carve them on groomers. Never skied them in deep snow, but that's not likely to be an issue in PA.

That being said, I've seen plenty of people rip bumps on all kinds of skis. I wouldn't recommend a rockered ski for someone who spends a lot of time in bumps, but I think technique is far more important to good bump skiing than ski choice. A dedicated bump ski will probably be lighter and quicker edge to edge and will help you get out of the back seat when your technique flounders, but it won't dramatically improve your bump skiing the way a shaped ski will improve your carving or a rockered ski will improve your powder skiing.

Looking for an all mountain ski . My leg strength is good and can muscle some stiff skis around but a dedicated bump ski might not be great for groomers .I ski on Nordica steadfast with a dynafit radicals when skiing groomers as an alternative but need an all mountain I really love the steadfast's for most everything but bumps , the bindings wont hold up to constant bump flexing so I'm gentle with them.
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,738
Points
48
Location
Southeast NH
The problem with modern All Mountain skis in bumps is too much sidecut, too much stiffness towards the tip and a wide tip shovel.

All mountain skis aren't designed to ski straight. They want to always be on edge and have flex patterns that performs best at a high edge angle.

All of this goes completely against what you want to do skiing bumps. To zip a line, you want to pretty much forget your edges entirely. You ski flat. Sidecut and wide shovel are not your friends while skiing flat.



Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 

CS2-6

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
22
Points
0
Location
Frantically crawling out of the backseat
Holy crap. I gotta say, I'm impressed. Yall have already been incredibly helpful. Thanks for all the input.

that's when you are most likely to fall into the backseat as your weight position becomes more neutral. Having soft tails exasperates the potential for this

The backseat is certainly where my problem is. I've mostly skied flexible park/all mountain skis the past few seasons, probably because the all mountain carvers I was usually recommended (Volkl Kendo, etc) were too stiff and had too much sidecut. I guess I liked the soft shovels on the Kinks, but the soft tails aren't doing me any favors. Maybe that's why when I move the demo bindings to the furthest forward position, I feel more stable (longer tail makes it feel stiffer?? :dontknow:)

go rogue and say none of the above

I love rogue opinions. Saving the cash to be better used elsewhere is definitely an option.

There's a lot you're doing right...Lets look at some photos:

Mister Moose, you really didn't have to put that much work into helping me, but I am stunned and sincerely grateful that you did. You helped me more in one post than an entire $100 lesson did. I mean, the lesson was fine, but everything he told me was essentially from the Bumps For Boomers text book. Anyway, that's irrelevant; thanks for your help.

Here cresting a small bump, look at your lower leg. There is no forward shin pressure...A few seconds later in the stop, weight way back.

I see what you mean. I noticed last season that coming out of right hand turns I seem to be in the backseat more often than left turns. I can see from your write-up that I have got to really focus more on driving the tips into the trough and maintaining strong forward pressure.

They are divergent. Ask yourself what is going on

I'm either over-steering my downhill ski or under-steering my uphill ski; likely both. I'm guessing it's a result of learning to ski by the snow plow --> stem christie method, and some of those ingrained habits cropping up.

Buy the skis you like...you aren't yet where you can make the best evaluation on what those skis should be

This makes total sense. Honestly, the skis I like are the ones that will help (or at least not hinder) my ability to ski bumps better. The list in my OP was just a bunch from a class of ski that I thought would do that. But you're right, I don't know enough to make that judgment.

Get some coaching on edging, timing, hip position and stance in general, weight distribution, perfecting your turn and different kinds of turns, line selection and honing your ability to ski different lines of the same bump.

Will do. I've got my eye on the Mary Jane bump clinic.

a sin for someone who lives in Colorado

Ooooooh man. I probably should've been clearer in my OP, but I figured if I wrote another word I'd be banned permanently. The San Juans are just where I ski, almost exclusively. If any citizens of Colorado had heard you say that, their collective white-hot rage would've burned bright enough to melt down the host server for this forum. 'Cause I'm the creature most despised and reviled by Coloradans: a Native G@#D&?n Texan. Residing in, being raised in, and born in Texas, 12 hours southeast of Taos is as close as I've ever lived to a ski lift. So 2 trips a season = 10 days = about as much as I can hope for. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

read mogul books & watch mogul videos to make the most of your time on hill, there's lots of material out there. Look at Pugski.com, tons of mogul advice and videos there. Find a good mogul coach or instructor. Take at least 3 classes in those 10 days. Get more video of yourself, (preferably better quality video*) and study it.

On it. I've read DiPiro's book (I should probably revisit that), Jean-Claude Killy's "Situational Skiing" and R. Mark Elling's "The All-Mountain Skier". So I have some understanding of what I'm supposed to be doing, I'm just not always sure what I'm doing wrong. I just know I look like shit and wanna ski bumps like I see some folks do it (smooth, clean, and tightkneed). I've posted on PugSki, but I haven't dug around much on there for bump content, I will be sure to. And I'll follow your pointers next time I get someone to film me.

Again, thanks Mister Moose. Are you a coach or an instructor? If not, you should be. I'd pay for feedback like that.

Dynastar Twisters

get out of the back seat when your technique flounders

Well, this is definitely a big flaw in my skiing. I liked the Originators... and it sounds like the Twisters are on the softer side. I'll probably keep an eye out for a cheap set...

His skiing isn't bad . If I had to critique it would be a lil back seat and not enough knee bending.

edit . I'm sort of in the same boat as far as a ski need goes . So I'm glad the OP posted the subject.

Thanks, man! And let me know what ski you end up on.

I can only imagine the constructive feedback (ridicule)

I welcome the feedback and embrace the ridicule! Keep it coming!!
 

Siliconebobsquarepants

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,683
Points
48
Location
Lehigh County Pa.
Website
www.youtube.com
"I just know I look like shit and wanna ski bumps like I see some folks do it smooth, clean, and tightkneed"

I have an old ski buddy that never progressed past intermediate. His biggest impediment was his stance If I had to pick one flaw I see it's "Your stance is to erect in the bumps" Lower your upper body and move your hands forward and your tips will almost automatically drive into the next trough. With an erect stance in the bumps when you crest the next bump you have nothing left to drive your tips into the next trough . Try standing straight up and pressing on the balls of your feet ( backseat instantly ) . Now squat and try the same thing ...big difference !
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
I'm either over-steering my downhill ski or under-steering my uphill ski; likely both. I'm guessing it's a result of learning to ski by the snow plow --> stem christie method, and some of those ingrained habits cropping up.

Yes, but it goes deeper. Why are you doing that? It's a short grainy video, and I may very well be wrong, but it looks to me like on right turns you delay or never really commit to the outside foot, or if/when you do, it doesn't last. The left foot drops because it isn't edged/weighted, and then ask why isn't it edged, and you get to lateral body position. Steering. This is why I said you need to deconstruct your turn. Wax on, wax off. Do you understand that reference? If not, go watch The Karate Kid.



Residing in, being raised in, and born in Texas, 12 hours southeast of Taos is as close as I've ever lived to a ski lift. So 2 trips a season = 10 days = about as much as I can hope for. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

Oh. Why haven't you moved to Colorado yet?


I'd pay for feedback like that.

Cool. Come to VT and buy me a beer. Better yet, come in late April and hang out on Superstar for a weekend. (Superstar in April and May is probably unknown in Texas, but it is Bumper central in the East.)

Oh. Lose the backpack. You're not off skiing the Hobacks. It messes with your center of gravity, adds weight, and when it moves out of synch with extension/absorbtion it screws you up.
 
Last edited:

bdfreetuna

New member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
4,300
Points
0
Location
keep the faith
Kastle FX85 without the HP if you want it flexier

There's a lot of ways to ski bumps though and if you aren't trying to zip line I would just go with your top "all mountain" pick. You will adapt.

My above suggestion is probably not too far off the mark though, even though I have no owned nor skied one, it was one of my top picks before I bought Atomic Vantage 90 CTi (no ragerts there but probably would have gone Kastle if I wanted a mogul ski).
 

CS2-6

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
22
Points
0
Location
Frantically crawling out of the backseat
Whatever happened to Dan DiPiro?

That's a question I'd like to hear the answer to myself.

Lower your upper body and move your hands forward and your tips will almost automatically drive into the next trough.

That makes a lot of sense. I read a lot indicating that you need to have a more upright stance in the bumps, but now I'm thinking that's relative; specifically, relative to the hip angulation you see in slalom and downhill styles.

Why are you doing that?

You know, I've noticed that I've always been more comfortable stopping to the left rather than the right. It's the first way I learned to stop as a kid and even now on steep stuff I find myself spilling more speed to turning to the left and less in control to the right. And that biomechanical flaw might go really really deep... when I'm squatting heavy weight I tend to twist a little to the left coming up.

I didn't realize it was obvious in steered turns on easy blue runs though.

Watch The Karate Kid.

You mean that really old movie? With Will Smith's son? Naw I didn't, the previews didn't look that good. I can catch a fly with my ski poles though.

Oh. Why haven't you moved to Colorado yet?

'Cause God Bless Texas.

Cool. Come to VT and buy me a beer. Better yet, come in late April and hang out on Superstar for a weekend. (Superstar in April and May is probably unknown in Texas, but it is Bumper central in the East.)

Man... you really shouldn't make offers you'll regret following through on. If work sends me up to Yankeeland in April I'll definitely be taking you up on that. Sounds like it'd beat a Mary Jane mogul clinic in a cost/benefit analysis, even though I have no idea what "Superstar" is. Hell, I didn't even know you could ski in May up there.

Just don't call me "grasshopper" or make me walk on rice paper (your turn for the "reference challenge").

Oh. Lose the backpack.

Ok....... but where am I going to carry this 32oz of coffee, beef jerky, and tall boy then?

I would just go with your top "all mountain" pick. You will adapt.

This brings up another question: what length skis would yall recommend for me (5'11", 165lbs)? And I know my poles should be short, but how short? 44-45"?
 

CS2-6

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
22
Points
0
Location
Frantically crawling out of the backseat
Whatever happened to Dan DiPiro?

Lemme know if you find out.

Lower your upper body and move your hands forward and your tips will almost automatically drive into the next trough.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'd heard you want a taller stance in the bumps, but that's probably in a relative sense, relative to the greater hip angulation in slalom and downhill styles.

Why are you doing that?

You know, I've noticed that I always feel a little more comfortable stopping to the left than the right. It's the way I first learned, and even now on steep stuff I've seen that I tend to spill more speed turning to the left and less in control to the right. And that bio-mechanical flaw might go really really deep; when I'm squatting heavy weight, I have a tendancy to twist a little bit to the left coming up.

I just didn't know it was obvious even on easy blue runs.

go watch The Karate Kid.

You mean that really old movie? With Will Smith's kid? Naw, the previews didn't look that good. I can catch a fly with my ski poles though...

Oh. Why haven't you moved to Colorado yet?

'Cause God Bless Texas.

Cool. Come to VT and buy me a beer

Don't make offers you'll regret following through on. If work sends me up to Yankeeland I'll definitely be taking you up on that. Sounds like it might even beat a Mary Jane clinic in a cost/benefit analysis. And yeah, I don't know what Superstar is; I didn't even know you could still ski in May up there.

Just don't call me "grasshopper" or make me walk on rice paper (your turn in the Reference Challenge).

Oh. Lose the backpack

But then where am I going to carry this 32oz of coffee, bag of beef jerky, and tall boy?

You will adapt.
 
Top