another accident- Natasha Richardson in critical

[SkiDork]

ski helmets DO NOT cushion (althought I wish they would especially when my head gets knocked by the chairlift bar). THey only spread impact.

Really?? What do you call that squishy stuff in the helmet I can squish down?

mine isn't squishy at all. It's very hard styrofoam. I can't depress it with even a hard fingerpress. Like I said, I wish mine cushioned more because if I hit it with something it freakin HURTS!!@! I have a G10 Gyro.

But Mondeo basically set me straight. Apparently it needs to be hard so it cushions on HARD impacts.

 

[mondeo]

Apparently it needs to be hard so it cushions on HARD impacts.

Just some further explanation on this, in case some might find it interesting. Basically, foams are a bunch of baloons fit together. Squeeze a little, they compress some, and then go back to their orignal shape when you let go. Squeeze harder, a few of the weaker ones will burst, and only the ones that don't burst return to their original form - resulting in a depression in the foam.

So think about placing a baloon on your forehead and then slamming your head into a wall. If you do it lightly, the baloon will feel nice and soft, and won't burst. A little harder, the baloon will burst, but will have taken enough of the energy that the impact with the wall won't be as bad. But if you hit your head against the wall with a force comparable to dropping your head, say, from 5 feet in the air, the baloon will burst and your head hits the wall pretty hard.

Now try the mental experiment with a basketball. At the level that the baloon feels nice and soft, the basketball is unforgiving and uncomfortable. But at the extreme end, the basketball is pretty firm but has enough give to make the impact less severe than with a baloon that pops instantly.

For any specific scenario, the ideal foam is just soft enough that the last little baloon bursts at the very end of the impact. The foam in the helmet is probably selected so that it will start deforming when it needs to decelerate a head at 15g's or above, or something like that (where there's a risk of brain damage.) So, disregarding the interaction between head and body, with an 8lb head, the foam needs to resist 120 pouds spread out over a typical contact area with the head, without deforming.

Incidentally, in college I designed the crush zone for a Formula SAE car. We ended up using a foam originally designed for nuclear material transport containers. The stuff was stiff enough that you could stand on a fairly small piece of it without leaving a mark. As a result, I have some experience engineering foam impact attenuators.

 

[Stache]

Talking about Bicycle helmets but all helmets pretty much work the same.

Good for a single absorbtion of the impact by sacrificing the foam. Once squashed that area of foam will not spring back and protect you there again.

http://www.helmets.org/general.htm

 

[bigbog]

....

Marker's M3 cushions on the outside and the additional pads work on the very inside...it is still rather rigid inside...would like to have a full layer that's softer ...next to the skull, then it seems like it would be a great helmet. It would be larger, but not by much... Softer pads are stuck onto the rigid rim....would like to have a whole layer of the soft stuff...as in whitewater helmets. Guess maybe the physics dictate otherwise...but a WW helmet sure feels safer, even though the slightly older ones don't cover the ears as much as the newest ones...= look much the same as some of the newest skiing helmets seen in the mags...
$.01

 

[mondeo]

Talking about Bicycle helmets but all helmets pretty much work the same.

Good for a single absorbtion of the impact by sacrificing the foam. Once squashed that area of foam will not spring back and protect you there again.

http://www.helmets.org/general.htm

Good read.

Marker's M3 cushions on the outside and the additional pads work on the very inside...it is still rather rigid inside...would like to have a full layer that's softer ...next to the skull, then it seems like it would be a great helmet. It would be larger, but not by much... Softer pads are stuck onto the rigid rim....would like to have a whole layer of the soft stuff...as in whitewater helmets. Guess maybe the physics dictate otherwise...but a WW helmet sure feels safer, even though the slightly older ones don't cover the ears as much as the newest ones...= look much the same as some of the newest skiing helmets seen in the mags...
$.01

As the longer explanation linked above mentioned, it's a tradeoff. Adding a layer of softer foam/fabric/whatever would not hurt the impact absorption as long as you kept the stiffer layer just as thick, but you'd then have to make the helmet that much thicker to compensate. You could protect against harder impacts by having thicker rigid foam, but again, larger helmet. Same thickness, make the foam more rigid, increase the chance for minor injuries but protect against death better. Everything's a trade-off.

 

[faceplant]

Could a Helmet Have Saved Natasha Richardson?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599188611500


40 min ride to hospital-
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090320..._richardson;_ylt=AhFG57qI4BWUsQJWhRzN9iIDW7oF

 

[SkiDork]

mondeo, why can't they have another layer inside the hard foam thats softer? This way the soft layer can handle the lower speed impacts and make it nice and comfy. Then when you have a higher speed impact, you're through the softer layer and the hard layer goes to work.

 

[catskills]

When ski patrol, EMT, or Paramedic says go to the hospital then go to the damn hospital.

Yes we all should wear a helmet. Helmet may have saved Natasha. Emphasis on "may". Getting a helicopter ride to a level 1 trauma center hospital would have had a much better chance of saving Natasha's life. As a ski patroller and EMT-B I have to work way to hard sometimes to convince people they really need to go to the hospital. Sometimes I try every trick I have learned over 11 years and its still not enough. This is when I let some other health care provider try their bag of tricks of convincing the patient they need additional medical care.

The medical examiner ruled her death an accident, and doctors said she might have survived had she received immediate treatment. However, nearly four hours elapsed between her lethal fall and her admission to a hospital.

End of discussion. Now lets celebrate Natasha's life.

 

[mondeo]

mondeo, why can't they have another layer inside the hard foam thats softer? This way the soft layer can handle the lower speed impacts and make it nice and comfy. Then when you have a higher speed impact, you're through the softer layer and the hard layer goes to work.

They could, but it's a question of whether consumers are willing to accept the additional size (probably at least an additional quarter inch layer) and cost. Foam is out, because it'll get destroyed pretty quickly if it's absorbing all the little impacts. A gel might work.

 

[SkiDork]

They could, but it's a question of whether consumers are willing to accept the additional size (probably at least an additional quarter inch layer) and cost. Foam is out, because it'll get destroyed pretty quickly if it's absorbing all the little impacts. A gel might work.

yeah - that sounds great. I'd definitely buy a helmet like that. Thanks.

 

[Jisch]

In the local paper there was an article about Natasha's death. There was a sidebar about Canada requiring helmets on the slopes. Apparently it was an intiative that was re-ignited with this incident.

John

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Helmets should be required!!!!

 

[mondeo]

Helmets should be required!!!!

And while you're at it, outlaw smoking and alcohol (while keeping pot illegal,) drop the national speed limit to 30, make all scissors, pencils, etc, the same kind you give kindergarteners, ...

Actually, put everyone in an individual padded cell, have robots farm what's nutrionally necessary, and no one actually does anything. That'll reduce physical risks like nothing else!

 

[thorski]

Helmets should be required!!!!

Madness.

 

[2knees]

Helmets should be required!!!!

you make me think birth control should be required.


it was there. sorry.

 

[Stache]

Hey, you could be asleep in bed, in your house south of Buffalo,NY or Lockerbie Scotland and a plane could fall out of the sky and KILL you.

 

[2Planker]

When ski patrol, EMT, or Paramedic says go to the hospital then go to the damn hospital.

Yes we all should wear a helmet. Helmet may have saved Natasha. Emphasis on "may". Getting a helicopter ride to a level 1 trauma center hospital would have had a much better chance of saving Natasha's life. As a ski patroller and EMT-B I have to work way to hard sometimes to convince people they really need to go to the hospital. Sometimes I try every trick I have learned over 11 years and its still not enough. This is when I let some other health care provider try their bag of tricks of convincing the patient they need additional medical care.

The medical examiner ruled her death an accident, and doctors said she might have survived had she received immediate treatment. However, nearly four hours elapsed between her lethal fall and her admission to a hospital.

End of discussion. Now lets celebrate Natasha's life.

As a 25+ year NSP patroller and a Trauma Surgeon all I can say is People don't always listen, and sign themselves out AMA - Against Medical Advice....

 

[kingslug]

Well it looks like Liam wants to sue Tremblant...because somebody has to pay...might as well be them. Unreal!

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Well it looks like Liam wants to sue Tremblant...because somebody has to pay...might as well be them. Unreal!

are you shitting me..

 

[deadheadskier]

Well it looks like Liam wants to sue Tremblant...because somebody has to pay...might as well be them. Unreal!

link?