Are the New England ski mountains blowing enough snow?

[gores95]

My family and I are going to Big K from 12/16-12/18. Here in Northern NJ temps have struggled to get above freezing so I know that up in VT snowmaking temps are IDEAL.

I have been monitoring K's snowmaking efforts on their website and to be honest I am VERY disappointed. I figured they'd be blowing snow on just about any and all snowmaking trails and blowing as much as they could to lay down a solid base for the inevitable thaws down the road. They have TONS of trails with snowmaking but only 16 or so that they are blowing snow on at this point. It just seems like a waste to me! Check out their trail report:

http://www.killington.com/pdf/trail_report.pdf

I know economics are king but I would think the more snow they blow now the more skiers they would draw and the longer the season would be. Is this ASC at its finest or are all eastern resorts missing the boat on this great snowmaking opportunity? Something tells me Okemo and Stratton in VT (and Hunter in NY) are taking MUCH more advantage of these great temps than K.

Any thoughts?

Marc

 

[ALLSKIING]

They won't be 100% open by the 16th but they open trails pretty quick. I am sure they will get some natural snow as well. I bet by the 16th they will have around 60+ trails open. If a good storm hits then count on more.

 

[awf170]

My family and I are going to Big K from 12/16-12/18. Here in Northern NJ temps have struggled to get above freezing so I know that up in VT snowmaking temps are IDEAL.

I have been monitoring K's snowmaking efforts on their website and to be honest I am VERY disappointed. I figured they'd be blowing snow on just about any and all snowmaking trails and blowing as much as they could to lay down a solid base for the inevitable thaws down the road. They have TONS of trails with snowmaking but only 16 or so that they are blowing snow on at this point. It just seems like a waste to me! Check out their trail report:

http://www.killington.com/pdf/trail_report.pdf

I know economics are king but I would think the more snow they blow now the more skiers they would draw and the longer the season would be. Is this ASC at its finest or are all eastern resorts missing the boat on this great snowmaking opportunity? Something tells me Okemo and Stratton in VT (and Hunter in NY) are taking MUCH more advantage of these great temps than K.

Any thoughts?

Marc

They are making as much snow as possible, even if you have guns on every day it doesnt mean you can turn eveyone on at the same time. 16 trails is really impressive, most mountains can only do about 5 trails at a time.

 

[riverc0il]

this is typical for any resort in new england, including kmart. ski areas have limited resources and can never maximize their entire snow making system at one time. only so many compressors and so much electricity and so much snow and so much man power, etc. snow making usually procedes at a slow rate with most areas going for full and deep coverage a few trails at a time. the only ski area out there that can blanket the entire mountain in 48 hours would likely be a place like crotched.

I know economics are king but I would think the more snow they blow now the more skiers they would draw and the longer the season would be.

economics have nothing to do with it i that sense. length of season is irrelevent to kmart. they actually don't want to stay open longer. the longer they stay open, the less profit they make. but that wouldn't be a reason to cut back on snow now. the push is consistant snow making up to the christmas vacation holiday when kmart will look to wow people into going to kmart. other ski areas aren't going to be much competition for kmart, they historically are the most reliable bet during this time of year for most terrain open, for better or worse. definitely don't worry much about the snow making, they are likely pumping out as much as possible as are all areas in new england right now with this prolonged cold.

 

[snowmaker4191]

They are making as much snow as possible, even if you have guns on every day it doesnt mean you can turn eveyone on at the same time. 16 trails is really impressive, most mountains can only do about 5 trails at a time.

you got it :beer:

 

[LVNLARG]

My family and I are going to Big K from 12/16-12/18. Here in Northern NJ temps have struggled to get above freezing so I know that up in VT snowmaking temps are IDEAL.

I have been monitoring K's snowmaking efforts on their website and to be honest I am VERY disappointed. I figured they'd be blowing snow on just about any and all snowmaking trails and blowing as much as they could to lay down a solid base for the inevitable thaws down the road. They have TONS of trails with snowmaking but only 16 or so that they are blowing snow on at this point. It just seems like a waste to me! Check out their trail report:

http://www.killington.com/pdf/trail_report.pdf

I know economics are king but I would think the more snow they blow now the more skiers they would draw and the longer the season would be. Is this ASC at its finest or are all eastern resorts missing the boat on this great snowmaking opportunity? Something tells me Okemo and Stratton in VT (and Hunter in NY) are taking MUCH more advantage of these great temps than K.

Any thoughts?

Marc

Do you have any idea how many snowmakers, guns, how much power and how much water you would need to blow every trail at K ?!?!?!? The answer is around 800 (Try finding 8 snowmakers to hire...never mind 800), 100,000 snow guns (that's like 1 billion dollars worth if you're talking all top of the line high efficency....any idea how much a resort with 1 billion dollars worth of guns would have to charge for tickets ? About $5000 a day) and so much power the lights would dim in New York city....and the water main would be around the size of a subway tunnel. Your post is atypical of the complete lack of understanding that people who whine about ski resort operations management actually have about ski resort operations management.

According to that report they're currently blowing 18 trails....that might be around 1000 guns on line....that's insane 8)

 

[thetrailboss]

I have been monitoring K's snowmaking efforts on their website and to be honest I am VERY disappointed. I figured they'd be blowing snow on just about any and all snowmaking trails and blowing as much as they could to lay down a solid base for the inevitable thaws down the road. They have TONS of trails with snowmaking but only 16 or so that they are blowing snow on at this point. It just seems like a waste to me! Check out their trail report:

http://www.killington.com/pdf/trail_report.pdf

I know economics are king but I would think the more snow they blow now the more skiers they would draw and the longer the season would be. Is this ASC at its finest or are all eastern resorts missing the boat on this great snowmaking opportunity? Something tells me Okemo and Stratton in VT (and Hunter in NY) are taking MUCH more advantage of these great temps than K.

Any thoughts?

Marc

I'm not sure what the beef is...snowmaking on only a handful of trails at a time or overall effort :-?

If it is the former, remember that systems have capacity and many places can only make snow on a couple of trails at a time. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to make snow on EVERY trail at once. Not enough infrastructure, labor, and power.

Also remember that if a place in NJ is "blowing on all of its trails" that this is not representative of what bigger places can do. Mountain Creek is much, much smaller than Killington or any other NNE resort and relies on its snowmaking.

There are also water withdrawal restrictions that mean that a resort can only take so much water at a time.

Electricity is expensive and many resorts have entered into agreements to blow snow at night so as to save money and electricity (e.g. Sugarbush) while some have opted to use on-site generators and are limited by that capacity (e.g. Burke). So this is another limit.

Design limitations also play a role. The compressors and pumps can only serve one area at a time and not all of them. Jay, for example, does its work in 'zones' starting with Stateside and then working to another. They are not plumbed to blow snow simultaneously on Stateside and Tram Side very well.

Maybe humidity and other weather factors are playing a role...I don't know.

I DO know that Cannon, Burke, and Sunapee are going full bore right now on their snowmaking efforts, but again, that is only a few trails at a time. It is unreasonable to conclude that "they aren't doing enough" by snowmaking on some trails when "it seems they could be blowing on all of them." This is not possible...assuming I understand your question. Hell, blowing on 16 trails at once is impressive IMHO!

 

[ozzy]

i dono. They were making alot of snow there this afternoon.

 

[gores95]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

Well, you do bring a good point and that is that ASC with its financial difficulties is not blowing as much on each trail or running the guns as long as they used to. Places like Sunday River are prime examples of what has happened...not as much as they used to do.

That said, they are going full bore now from what I've seen, but they won't be as aggressive in the future.

 

[LVNLARG]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

Well, you do bring a good point and that is that ASC with its financial difficulties is not blowing as much on each trail or running the guns as long as they used to. Places like Sunday River are prime examples of what has happened...not as much as they used to do.

That said, they are going full bore now from what I've seen, but they won't be as aggressive in the future.

What Trail is trying to explain...but didn't quite get around to ....is the fact that ALL mountians will be overtaxing (running harder than they should) their snowmaking systems until Dec 25. This is because yee who has the big trail count gets the last minute xmas reservations. In other words...it pays to make snow right now... so they do it.. to an exponent. By Jan 3....when the holiday season, chronic resort overcrowding and people willing to overpay for everything go away....so will 50 to 75% of the snowguns...because all that snowmaking will no longer result in exponential profits. Simple ski business math.

 

[skibum1321]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

Well, you do bring a good point and that is that ASC with its financial difficulties is not blowing as much on each trail or running the guns as long as they used to. Places like Sunday River are prime examples of what has happened...not as much as they used to do.

That said, they are going full bore now from what I've seen, but they won't be as aggressive in the future.

What Trail is trying to explain...but didn't quite get around to ....is the fact that ALL mountians will be overtaxing (running harder than they should) their snowmaking systems until Dec 25. This is because yee who has the big trail count gets the last minute xmas reservations. In other words...it pays to make snow right now... so they do it.. to an exponent. By Jan 3....when the holiday season, chronic resort overcrowding and people willing to overpay for everything go away....so will 50 to 75% of the snowguns...because all that snowmaking will no longer result in exponential profits. Simple ski business math.

Also, by January 3 we should have enough natural snow where they don't need to blow that much more snow because it won't lead to opening any more trails. Key word in that statement is should.

 

[hammer]

What Trail is trying to explain...but didn't quite get around to ....is the fact that ALL mountians will be overtaxing (running harder than they should) their snowmaking systems until Dec 25. This is because yee who has the big trail count gets the last minute xmas reservations. In other words...it pays to make snow right now... so they do it.. to an exponent. By Jan 3....when the holiday season, chronic resort overcrowding and people willing to overpay for everything go away....so will 50 to 75% of the snowguns...because all that snowmaking will no longer result in exponential profits. Simple ski business math.

Speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, this is fine by me. I have plans for the holiday week and I'd like to have the ski areas open up as many trails as they can...

If the ski areas back off the snowmaking in January, that's OK as long as Mother Nature can kick in. If we have any January thaws with NCP, though...:x

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

Well, you do bring a good point and that is that ASC with its financial difficulties is not blowing as much on each trail or running the guns as long as they used to. Places like Sunday River are prime examples of what has happened...not as much as they used to do.

That said, they are going full bore now from what I've seen, but they won't be as aggressive in the future.

What Trail is trying to explain...but didn't quite get around to ....is the fact that ALL mountians will be overtaxing (running harder than they should) their snowmaking systems until Dec 25. This is because yee who has the big trail count gets the last minute xmas reservations. In other words...it pays to make snow right now... so they do it.. to an exponent. By Jan 3....when the holiday season, chronic resort overcrowding and people willing to overpay for everything go away....so will 50 to 75% of the snowguns...because all that snowmaking will no longer result in exponential profits. Simple ski business math.

If you were interpreting my last sentence, your interpretation was not what I meant.

I do concur that snowmaking cuts back after the holidays...but they ramp up efforts for MLK weekend and President's Week.

My point was ASC specific. Financial Problems for that company mean less snowmaking is done now than in the late '90's.

 

[LVNLARG]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I overestimated what I thought a ski mountain's snowmaking capacity is. My beef was in the number of trails overall at K that are shown to have snowmaking but only a handful have any man made snow on them.

Believe me I am no expert on making snow and if the majority here feel that K is doing a good job, then I agree. I would think that with another week and half until we are up there much more will begin to open. I will keep my eyes on the trail/lift/snow reports.
:wink:
Marc

Well, you do bring a good point and that is that ASC with its financial difficulties is not blowing as much on each trail or running the guns as long as they used to. Places like Sunday River are prime examples of what has happened...not as much as they used to do.

That said, they are going full bore now from what I've seen, but they won't be as aggressive in the future.

What Trail is trying to explain...but didn't quite get around to ....is the fact that ALL mountians will be overtaxing (running harder than they should) their snowmaking systems until Dec 25. This is because yee who has the big trail count gets the last minute xmas reservations. In other words...it pays to make snow right now... so they do it.. to an exponent. By Jan 3....when the holiday season, chronic resort overcrowding and people willing to overpay for everything go away....so will 50 to 75% of the snowguns...because all that snowmaking will no longer result in exponential profits. Simple ski business math.

If you were interpreting my last sentence, your interpretation was not what I meant.

I do concur that snowmaking cuts back after the holidays...but they ramp up efforts for MLK weekend and President's Week.

My point was ASC specific. Financial Problems for that company mean less snowmaking is done now than in the late '90's.

Ahhh...I mistook what you were trying to say...but in the end it is all the same. The other holidays are the same deal as Xmas....The resorts make a push snowmaking wise as they get immediate financial reward for their efforts. The other point someone brought up is generally snow starts falling from the sky en mass in January so the need for snowmaking also reduces. All in all....the main point is....resorts will not at any other time of the year be blowing as much snow as they are blowing today....in terms of effort. In January ...when temps are another 20 degrees colder it is possible to blow more snow with half the effort if compressed air is the weakness of the resort's system. If water is the resort's weakness...this is it...today is the most they can blow.

:beer: