Attitash snowmaking - October 6th!

[BushMogulMaster]

I feel like I have to comment here, because you make it sound like the program doesn't prepare students for the "real" ski industry. This is certainly not the case. The two Ski Area Operations professors are not just well-educated jaded college profs. They are both still working and consulting for the industry. The head professor has 30 years of industry experience in snowmaking, grooming, vehicle maintenance, equipment operations, ski patrol, trail construction, resort design, and then some. He has designed snowmaking systems, still consults for snowmaking upgrades and changes, still grooms locally, has conducted extensive industry surveys, and is called upon by ski areas across the world for consultation. He spent 5 years on the NSAA economic study board, and currently serves on the Snowmaking and Grooming Committee of Colorado Ski Country USA. He's written for SAM, has traveled to China to evaluate and develop three potential areas. The list goes on. The associate professor has nearly 25 years of industry experience, specializing in ski patrol operations, lift operations, lift maintenance, grooming, industry history, and regulatory organizations. He has been the treasurer for the RMLA, and is a certified NSP instructor. He started and manages the nation's first Lift Mechanic Apprenticeship program. He is currently a part time ski patroller at a local mountain.

My point is this. Although it's a college program, the professors are still current in the industry, and are two of the top industry professionals in the country. This program is one of 4 ski area management programs in North America, and it is the most comprehensive of its type. It's been around for 26 years, and has produced some of the industry's finest specialists and leaders. If this major was some kind of a joke, I wouldn't be here. I have set high goals for my future in this industry, and this college is step #1. Surely nothing can replace experience. But starting with a solid understanding of the entire ski area operation sets one up for success in whatever department he should pursue.

 

[threecy]

I feel like I have to comment here, because you make it sound like the program doesn't prepare students for the "real" ski industry. This is certainly not the case. The two Ski Area Operations professors are not just well-educated jaded college profs. They are both still working and consulting for the industry. The head professor has 30 years of industry experience in snowmaking, grooming, vehicle maintenance, equipment operations, ski patrol, trail construction, resort design, and then some. He has designed snowmaking systems, still consults for snowmaking upgrades and changes, still grooms locally, has conducted extensive industry surveys, and is called upon by ski areas across the world for consultation. He spent 5 years on the NSAA economic study board, and currently serves on the Snowmaking and Grooming Committee of Colorado Ski Country USA. He's written for SAM, has traveled to China to evaluate and develop three potential areas. The list goes on. The associate professor has nearly 25 years of industry experience, specializing in ski patrol operations, lift operations, lift maintenance, grooming, industry history, and regulatory organizations. He has been the treasurer for the RMLA, and is a certified NSP instructor. He started and manages the nation's first Lift Mechanic Apprenticeship program. He is currently a part time ski patroller at a local mountain.

My point is this. Although it's a college program, the professors are still current in the industry, and are two of the top industry professionals in the country. This program is one of 4 ski area management programs in North America, and it is the most comprehensive of its type. It's been around for 26 years, and has produced some of the industry's finest specialists and leaders. If this major was some kind of a joke, I wouldn't be here. I have set high goals for my future in this industry, and this college is step #1. Surely nothing can replace experience. But starting with a solid understanding of the entire ski area operation sets one up for success in whatever department he should pursue.

Ski Industry Lesson #1: Anyone who can ski from the top of the ski mountain knows more than management/ownership.

 

[snowman]

I'm sure you're certainly ending up better off than you were before you showed up there for sure. I'm wondering if maybe you're getting a localized view of how things are done though. The profs sound like they've only worked at big time Colorado resorts which have the money to blow on high end snowmaking pipe etc (regardless, I'm sure the trenches are still dug by Billy and Bob). Where you're going to end up (if you do manage to get a job) is mountain maintenence manager at some po dunk ski area in the east or mid-west (think Hermon Mountain Maine) where cracked steel snowmaking pipe is fixed with a PATCH (good lord) because that's all they can afford. I have a few friends who went thru the ski area management course in Nelson BC and 0 of them actually got jobs in the ski industry. Mind you this was early 90's when jobs at Burger King were hard to come by, things are probably a bit better now. HOWEVER, ski areas on the small scale (which is where you're going to end up to start) are usually fiercely loyal to there employees. Many times the guy who becomes manager is the guy who's done every job at that hill for 15 years, not the guy with a SAM course. You're also likely going to be frustrated being told things are going to be done the old way when you want to do them the new way. Food for thought.

 

[threecy]

I've met a lot of people in the industry over the years, and I don't think I've met a single one who went to school for ski area management. In fact, there are a lot of people in industry management who never even went to college.

For years I wanted to be in the industry as a 'lifer'...decided to take the cheap way out education-wise and picked up my BBA at UMass. Between the long hours, the 'vow of poverty', some of the hard wired old school stuff (comps up the ying yang, etc.), and the know it all nature of many customers who have know actual industry experience or knowledge (ie the quote above), I decided to take a break from everyday stuff.

You're likely to have to deal with criticism from people around you as well as people in the industry when/if you attempt to make a go of it with your degree. This is good, though, because if it's meant to be, it'll only strengthen your drive.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I'm sure you're certainly ending up better off than you were before you showed up there for sure. I'm wondering if maybe you're getting a localized view of how things are done though. The profs sound like they've only worked at big time Colorado resorts which have the money to blow on high end snowmaking pipe etc (regardless, I'm sure the trenches are still dug by Billy and Bob). Where you're going to end up (if you do manage to get a job) is mountain maintenence manager at some po dunk ski area in the east or mid-west (think Hermon Mountain Maine) where cracked steel snowmaking pipe is fixed with a PATCH (good lord) because that's all they can afford. I have a few friends who went thru the ski area management course in Nelson BC and 0 of them actually got jobs in the ski industry. Mind you this was early 90's when jobs at Burger King were hard to come by, things are probably a bit better now. HOWEVER, ski areas on the small scale (which is where you're going to end up to start) are usually fiercely loyal to there employees. Many times the guy who becomes manager is the guy who's done every job at that hill for 15 years, not the guy with a SAM course. You're also likely going to be frustrated being told things are going to be done the old way when you want to do them the new way. Food for thought.

No... these guys have worked the whole spectrum, from the ground up. And its not localized or specific to large operations. We address all ski area operations, from little places with a T-bar and 3 trails, to places like Blackcomb/Whistler.

I am not in this program with the expectation of graduating and getting a management position on day 1. I plan to take 15-20 years to get where I want to, starting from the ground up. But this education gives me the solid base of knowledge of the whole industry, not just whatever departments I happen to get jobs in. It also includes management and leadership courses, risk management, etc. You can't deny that having an SAO degree PLUS 15 years of dedication means something.

This program has produced mountain managers, VPs, specialists in a variety of fields, consultants, backcountry guides, and tons of other professionals. Like I said before, nothing can replace experience. But the foundation is laid in this associates degree.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I've met a lot of people in the industry over the years, and I don't think I've met a single one who went to school for ski area management. In fact, there are a lot of people in industry management who never even went to college.

For years I wanted to be in the industry as a 'lifer'...decided to take the cheap way out education-wise and picked up my BBA at UMass. Between the long hours, the 'vow of poverty', some of the hard wired old school stuff (comps up the ying yang, etc.), and the know it all nature of many customers who have know actual industry experience or knowledge (ie the quote above), I decided to take a break from everyday stuff.

You're likely to have to deal with criticism from people around you as well as people in the industry when/if you attempt to make a go of it with your degree. This is good, though, because if it's meant to be, it'll only strengthen your drive.

I've already dealt with lots of it, and I'm sure I'll continue to. That's why I'm on a mission. None of you are at all familiar with this program or with the professors... I am. I grew up around this industry. My father's been in it since the 70s. I know how the industry works. I know that this program will groom me to professionalism in any facet of the industry.

Again, I'll still go through the same ranks as the guy with no degree or with a BS in Business Management. But as an entry level employee, I'll have a better foundational understanding of the inner workings of mountain ops, because I will have devoted two years of constant studies to the industry.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Ski Industry Lesson #1: Anyone who can ski from the top of the ski mountain knows more than management/ownership.

What about a manager/owner who can ski from the top?

 

[snowman]

My father's been in it since the 70s.

THAT is how you are going to get a half decent job, not your degree. I'm surprised your dad even "let" you go take the course. Maybe he wanted you to have a bit of fun before your working life and learn some stuff that can keep you from getting drowned in a snowmaking manhole mid-winter because everybody else thought the other guy told you what not to do.

Again, I'll still go through the same ranks as the guy with no degree

As long as you understand that, and keep what you've learnt to yourself (except when asked your opinion) you'll be fine.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

THAT is how you are going to get a half decent job, not your degree. I'm surprised your dad even "let" you go take the course. Maybe he wanted you to have a bit of fun before your working life and learn some stuff that can keep you from getting drowned in a snowmaking manhole mid-winter because everybody else thought the other guy told you what not to do.

No, you're wrong there. My dad encouraged me to take it, because he came out here himself to see what it was all about. He approved, and was extremely impressed. He's one of those guys who started out parking cars, then sold tickets, then loaded t-bars, then made some snow, groomed while in college, loaded more chairs, parked more cars, then moved on to lift ops supervising, lift ops/maintenance management, mountain management, general management, and is now on the VP level. He knows how it works, inside and out.

He was very leary of the idea at first, because he was under the same false pretenses that you are. But he was willing to visit the school, chat with the professors, and was immediately convinced of the value of the program.

As long as you understand that, and keep what you've learnt to yourself (except when asked your opinion) you'll be fine.

I'm under no false impressions here. I know what I have to do to be successful, and I plan on doing it. I hope I didn't come off as being arrogant about the fact that I'm in an SAO program. I really don't feel that way at all. In fact, (if my impression is correct), you seem to have some direct experience in the industry, and I greatly respect that. I added my knowledge and my .02 to this discussion, and then you made some comments about the college program that were simply unfounded. I just wanted to be sure that you don't continue to assume that any ski area management/operations program is a joke.

 

[Phildozer]

unless you have linemen

Great, now I have that Glenn Campbell song stuck in my head.

"I am a lineman for the County....."

 

[snowman]

No, you're wrong there. My dad encouraged me to take it, because he came out here himself to see what it was all about. He approved, and was extremely impressed. He's one of those guys who started out parking cars, then sold tickets, then loaded t-bars, then made some snow, groomed while in college, loaded more chairs, parked more cars, then moved on to lift ops supervising, lift ops/maintenance management, mountain management, general management, and is now on the VP level. He knows how it works, inside and out.

He was very leary of the idea at first, because he was under the same false pretenses that you are. But he was willing to visit the school, chat with the professors, and was immediately convinced of the value of the program.



I'm under no false impressions here. I know what I have to do to be successful, and I plan on doing it. I hope I didn't come off as being arrogant about the fact that I'm in an SAO program. I really don't feel that way at all. In fact, (if my impression is correct), you seem to have some direct experience in the industry, and I greatly respect that. I added my knowledge and my .02 to this discussion, and then you made some comments about the college program that were simply unfounded. I just wanted to be sure that you don't continue to assume that any ski area management/operations program is a joke.

You always seem to think you're under attack for some reason. You're not. Your dad (and his contacts) IS likely how you're going to land your first job. You're learning lots of great stuff, but no one is really going to listen to you because you have no real world experience. You understand that, which is half the battle right there. What I was saying is the reason your dad agreed that it's worthwile is you're going to learn lots of stuff there that's going to keep you from getting KILLED...stuff that others might forget to tell you in the field or be oblivious to leaving you in a blind leading the blind situation. Pay very close attention to all the safety stuff. That information is the best info you can take out of this course because by the time you're actually mountain manager, everything you studied will probably be out of date....but valve pits will STILL be drowning snowmakers, improperly secured equipment will STILL be impaling people and trenches will STILL be falling in on welders. Dangerous jobs are mostly just dangerous because people don't recognize the DANGER!

 

[BushMogulMaster]

You always seem to think you're under attack for some reason. You're not. Your dad (and his contacts) IS likely how you're going to land your first job. You're learning lots of great stuff, but no one is really going to listen to you because you have no real world experience. You understand that, which is half the battle right there. What I was saying is the reason your dad agreed that it's worthwile is you're going to learn lots of stuff there that's going to keep you from getting KILLED...stuff that others might forget to tell you in the field or be oblivious to leaving you in a blind leading the blind situation. Pay very close attention to all the safety stuff. That information is the best info you can take out of this course because by the time you're actually mountain manager, everything you studied will probably be out of date....but valve pits will STILL be drowning snowmakers, improperly secured equipment will STILL be impaling people and trenches will STILL be falling in on welders. Dangerous jobs are mostly just dangerous because people don't recognize the DANGER!

I'm sorry I misinterpreted it. Your posts just came off like you thought the program was worthless and a waste of time, and that I would not actually gain any value from it. This is the danger of electronic communication. We could probably have a much better discussion of this topic in person.

You're right about the safety concerns. Definitely one of the greatest parts of the course.

But use some logic here. The basic concepts of snowmaking, grooming, lift operations, lift maintenance, ski patrolling, etc. are essentially unchanging. Yes, there are new ideas, new technologies, etc. But the theories and concepts behind them remain the same through the years. We are learning those theories, and those concepts that will still be around when I'm mtn manager somewhere. The same snowmaking concepts my dad learned in the 80s still apply now. The same grooming techniques he learned in the 80s are still in use now. You learn the new as you go. You cannot understand the new unless you have an understanding and appreciation for the foundation of the old.

The three biggest pluses to studying SAO at CMC are the following: safety (as you mentioned), industry foundation, and contacts. The profs know tons and tons of people in the industry. If you work hard for them, they'll give a good reference and make that phone call to a friend, or whatever they can do to help you be successful.

Of course, my dad's position in the industry will also be a huge help. No doubt. But there's more to it than just that. And he doesn't support the program just to learn safety. He supports because of paragraph 3 above, as well.

As for valve pits... those are permit confined spaces. You need appropriate escapes and must always have two workers present, according to OSHA (<--- tongue in cheek per earlier posts). :wink:

 

[BushMogulMaster]

BTW, sorry for completely hijacking the Attitash thread

 

[snowman]

That's why it's usually 2 guys that drown instead of one?? Bad joke, sigh. I was more refering to the principles of snowmaking as that was the main topic of this thread. I have the feeling snowmaking is going to have some sort of a revolution over the next 20 years. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. This thread wanted hijacking. Rainmaking guised as snowmaking at 80F is not thread worthy!

 

[BushMogulMaster]

That's why it's usually 2 guys that drown instead of one?? Bad joke, sigh. I was more refering to the principles of snowmaking as that was the main topic of this thread. I have the feeling snowmaking is going to have some sort of a revolution over the next 20 years. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. This thread wanted hijacking. Snowmaking at 80F is not thread worthy!

Very true!

Well, we've got 100% automated systems at a few areas now, and more and more are moving to a process-control automation (which monitors weather stations and makes gun adjustments every 2 seconds, and is programmable by desired snow quality). What could be next, other than simply improving efficiency and production?

We need a snowgun that can actually make snowflakes. That would be a revolution. Powder day at the touch of a button!

 

[snowman]

Very true!

Well, we've got 100% automated systems at a few areas now, and more and more are moving to a process-control automation (which monitors weather stations and makes gun adjustments every 2 seconds, and is programmable by desired snow quality). What could be next, other than simply improving efficiency and production?

We need a snowgun that can actually make snowflakes. That would be a revolution. Powder day at the touch of a button!

WELL, we WOULDN'T want a snowmaking system that produces snowflakes, because snowflakes are far less durable to snowmaking granulars...but...you were likely just being funny. I'm thinking that snowmaking might move to some sort of efficient temperature independant machine that produces snow like a asphault plant and makes the whole operation much more dependant on snowcats. Covering a trail will be more like building a road. That may be more like 50 years out, but could come as quickly as 20 and will be driven by energy prices and temperature increases.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

WELL, we WOULDN'T want a snowmaking system that produces snowflakes, because snowflakes are far less durable to snowmaking granulars...but...you were likely just being funny. I'm thinking that snowmaking might move to some sort of efficient temperature independant machine that produces snow like a asphault plant and makes the whole operation much more dependant on snowcats. Covering a trail will be more like building a road. That may be more like 50 years out, but could come as quickly as 20 and will be driven by energy prices and temperature increases.

The flake thing was definitely sarcastic.

Your idea is fascinating, though. That would definitely change the face of snowmaking, for sure.

But you're really that worried about temperature increases? To the extent that you don't believe air/water snowmaking will be effective any longer? Or are you more concerned about the fact that, with slightly rising temps, using more energy to make snow isn't the answer? But then... running snowcats on a grand scale is also bad for the environment.

 

[snowman]

The flake thing was definitely sarcastic.

Your idea is fascinating, though. That would definitely change the face of snowmaking, for sure.

But you're really that worried about temperature increases? To the extent that you don't believe air/water snowmaking will be effective any longer? Or are you more concerned about the fact that, with slightly rising temps, using more energy to make snow isn't the answer? But then... running snowcats on a grand scale is also bad for the environment.

Snowcats are already being used in this manner as snowmaking generates whales, and the whales need to be pushed down the mountain. 20 years down the road, snowcats will be running on ethanol (at the very least), and will most likely utilize a re-gen drive which charges batteries braking the cat on the way down the hill for power to use on the way back up. If ever there was a use for a re-gen drive it would be a snowcat. If cats are being used as "dumptrucks" to haul snow from a "snow plant", the plants will be located up the mountain and the cats will carry the snow down. A lot of power will be created from braking the load on the way down the hill which will easily power the empty cat on the way back up to the plant.

Snowmaking is going to have to change for 2 reasons....rising temps and energy prices. RIGHT NOW, getting temps to make snow are a big problem. The snowmaking window where I live (east coast of Canada) seems to have gone from 4+ months to 2. If you have a temperature independent system you can then almost guarantee opening dates and people will book vacations with much more confidence. I think you're going to see ski resorts covering maybe 25% of their trails with snow made by a temperature independant system and the rest of the trails will be left for "when it snows". Skiing is going to become more crowded as a result (think skiing in Korea now). The trails will likely also be covered with a thermal blanket system on rainy and excessively warm days to protect the snow.

I'm just coming up with this crap right off the top of my head btw, but it's how new technology arriving in other industries now will be used in the ski industry later. I'm thinking way outside the box, hopefully some industry people are too or there's going to be a collective "what are we going to do now" 25 years from now.

 

[snowman]

The more I think about the "off the top of my head idea", the more it makes sense. I've worked in roadbuilding. If you can pave 2 miles of road a day to exacting standards with 2-6 inches of asphault and 20 dumptrucks being serviced by 1 plant 20 miles away in a 12 hour day, I don't see why you couldn't cover 2 miles of trail with over a foot of snow utilizing maybe 2 "snowplants" less than a mile away and 20 "dumptrucks" in 24 hours. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Definitely makes sense, and seems to be a viable option, given alternative energy to run snowcats + gravity working on our side. I like it. You go ahead and pioneer this, come up with a plan, and by the time it's ready for implementation, I'll be ready to come help out!

As far as current snowcat use in snowmaking, yeah... they're pushing whales. It just depends on the snowmaking distribution. As I'm sure you well know, today's snowmaking technology is perfectly capable of producing a wide distribution (given the right temps) via oscillating guns (or tons of snowmakers constantly turning guns) that requires zero dozing. I've seen it done many times. It's not a good option early season, because you need the insulating effect of big whales. But it can be quite useful when temps are low and you want to get as much terrain as possible open with as little effort as possible.

However, like I said... if alternative fuel options (like the ones you listed) become mainstream in the ski industry, then I'm all for more snowcat use in snowmaking, given a scenario like you suggest. I'm a big snowcat fan. I've got two PistenBully hats, 2 mugs, a window sticker, work gloves, etc. Which is kind of funny, since I pretty much only ski bumps. But this would provide an additional use for snowcats that doesn't involve flattening my moguls!