-
Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!
You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!
Big Burke announcement
- Thread starter the original trailboss
- Start date
MEtoVTSkier
Active member
Facebook in general has been acting wonky this morning.
Well, based on reports from the last meeting I was a little disappointed in the lack of passion at the meeting from both sides it seemed. Again, I wasn't there, but.......I would hope now that we are steamrolling through the middle of January with not so much terrain open and with them thinking it is a wonderful thing that a second......second!!......run from top to middle/bottom will be open for January 16th.....
And the hotel that hasn't opened yet. I don't think passholders really care too much about the hotel, it is about skiing conditions worthy of the price they paid. 30-40 guns in a week with ideal conditions.....
MEtoVTSkier
Active member
Yeah, the unwillingness to bring in portable compressors to help get them on track, after they saw what they were up against, speaks volumes. They seem unwilling to spend any more than they have to to gain ground on the poor hand the weather has dealt everyone this year.
But hey, at least the lifts ARE spinning, and the snowguns ARE running (yeah, I know, we all wish there were 3x as many running). There are SOME trails opened with conditions not being too overly bad.
It could be worse... just look at Magic... Heck, it's possible Saddleback will open before Magic!
But hey, at least the lifts ARE spinning, and the snowguns ARE running (yeah, I know, we all wish there were 3x as many running). There are SOME trails opened with conditions not being too overly bad.
It could be worse... just look at Magic... Heck, it's possible Saddleback will open before Magic!
VTKilarney
Well-known member
It will be very interesting to see how many people show up this weekend. With only two trails open from the top, things could get scraped off really quickly. I can't imagine that they will get many day ticket sales. It will most likely be a lot of condo owners and locals.
I believe that they are doing hotel tours. Hopefully someone will report on how far along the hotel looks to be.
I believe that they are doing hotel tours. Hopefully someone will report on how far along the hotel looks to be.
If someone isn't a passholder, I don't see them skiing Burke this weekend, why would anyone spend their money there vs. other places with more terrain open.
And while I get that Magic is a shit-show, it has always been a shit-show and Jr et al are lucky some of their passhodlers feel better about the sorry situation in Burke by saying "it could be worse....." (in no way am I picking on MEtoVT btw) what they are dealing with in Burke is also a blatant disregard of the core business.....who cares about a hotel on a mountain with shitty skiing and no terrain open? Broken record.......almost 6000 posts worth. I know, I know......I'm repetitive.....
SSDD until further notice I guess.....
And while I get that Magic is a shit-show, it has always been a shit-show and Jr et al are lucky some of their passhodlers feel better about the sorry situation in Burke by saying "it could be worse....." (in no way am I picking on MEtoVT btw) what they are dealing with in Burke is also a blatant disregard of the core business.....who cares about a hotel on a mountain with shitty skiing and no terrain open? Broken record.......almost 6000 posts worth. I know, I know......I'm repetitive.....
SSDD until further notice I guess.....
VTKilarney
Well-known member
And Magic hasn't had $55 million pumped into it to supposedly make it one of the big boys.
MEtoVTSkier
Active member
MEtoVTSkier
Active member
There was a time, I really wanted a condo at Burke, and was looking into it, but I'm really glad that I've held off and left my options open.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
It's definitely a very risky investment. The ski area has yet to break even, and there are only so many white knights out there. The Quiros family is not in the business of losing money. Once there are no more EB-5 administrative fees to pull in, if the hotel and resort are losing money they will pull the plug.
On the other hand, thanks to BMA the resort has a lot of protection from disappearing entirely.
The real test is going to be the hotel. If the hotel can pull in enough profits to keep the ski area alive, then there is a chance. But their biggest problem is that the locals and mountain bikers are not spending nearly enough money at Quiros owned establishments. The village itself has become the real center of summer activity.
This summer will be very interesting to watch. The hotel needs to be busy in the summer for Q Burke to have any chance.
We looked at condos back in 2008ish and thought about buying one, but given the older condos up there at the time and what people wanted for them vs. what you got (an aging small-ass condo that needed love) we decided to build instead. At the time the Bear Path stuff was approaching a million dollar ask and the only way they were worth that was if the walls were stuffed with $600K in cash.
So glad we chose the route we did.
I don't want my property value so directly tied to a situation as volatile as Burke Mountain.
Regarding the $55M investment......I look at that differently given that it is EB-5 money. What I mean is that, in most cases, especially in the New England Ski and recreation business, if owners invest a sum as significant as $55M it shows a very deep commitment to the mountain and the business as it usually includes a large chunk of their own capital in the $55M along with some minority holders etc. In this case, they invested $55M of someone else's money and they have very little skin in the game from a financial sense (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that account). Consistent with my paradigm of investment = commitment......investing someone else's money from a foreign land where you may or may not really be on the hook for an ROI or ROC shows me a certain lack of commitment.
That lack of commitment to the core business suggests to me perhaps their ultimate end game isn't running the "resort" as an ongoing concern but to window dress it for sale and collect fees along the way from the EB-5 process, related real estate deals etc. And to give Jr. a job because based on this resume no one else will hire him but Sr.
From my seat, if Q, Stenger et al were really committed to establishing a long term viable business centered around the Burke Ski Mountain.....they would have possibly done the EB-5 thing for the hotel and then sunk a meaningful sum into the ski product first or concurrently with the hotel. Every rational person understands that a hotel without a reason to stay there is just a big ass empty building answering a question no one has asked.......
But WTF do I know........
So glad we chose the route we did.
I don't want my property value so directly tied to a situation as volatile as Burke Mountain.
Regarding the $55M investment......I look at that differently given that it is EB-5 money. What I mean is that, in most cases, especially in the New England Ski and recreation business, if owners invest a sum as significant as $55M it shows a very deep commitment to the mountain and the business as it usually includes a large chunk of their own capital in the $55M along with some minority holders etc. In this case, they invested $55M of someone else's money and they have very little skin in the game from a financial sense (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that account). Consistent with my paradigm of investment = commitment......investing someone else's money from a foreign land where you may or may not really be on the hook for an ROI or ROC shows me a certain lack of commitment.
That lack of commitment to the core business suggests to me perhaps their ultimate end game isn't running the "resort" as an ongoing concern but to window dress it for sale and collect fees along the way from the EB-5 process, related real estate deals etc. And to give Jr. a job because based on this resume no one else will hire him but Sr.
From my seat, if Q, Stenger et al were really committed to establishing a long term viable business centered around the Burke Ski Mountain.....they would have possibly done the EB-5 thing for the hotel and then sunk a meaningful sum into the ski product first or concurrently with the hotel. Every rational person understands that a hotel without a reason to stay there is just a big ass empty building answering a question no one has asked.......
But WTF do I know........
VTKilarney
Well-known member
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. No matter how much "other people's money" has been sunk into the resort, they are going to walk if they start losing their own money. In other words, as soon as the EB-5 administrative fees (and insider land sales, etc.) stop covering operational losses, they are done.
Here is something that is troubling. By all accounts, Jay Peak has been a huge success. Skier visits are WAY up. But have you seen them make any much-needed improvements to the mountain itself? Nope. None. My gut tells me that this is because they are hemorrhaging money for eight months of the year. The overhead for these hotels and the waterpark has got to be huge.
Last edited:
Great post above "River19" couldn't agree more. The other thing the hotel does in my opinion, is secure Burke's future as on ongoing operating entity even more. As soon as these clowns get bored and leave, there is a $30 Million (don't believe that $55 Mil number they have been feeding you...) asset that someone is going to pick up for pennies on the dollar. After all the legal quagmire is run through, you still have one of the better mountains in new England, with one of the better resort hotels, two fairly new HSQ's, and 1/3 of a new snowmaking system. We just have to wait for the circus to leave Town...
VTKilarney
Well-known member
I have contacts in the hotel business, and every one of them can't believe that the hotel should have cost $55 million. EB-5 is funny that way. There is definitely no incentive to spend money efficiently.
The big difference is that Magic has incompetence; Burke has incompetence and management hostile to their customer base.
Exactly
BUT- Burke has a MUCH better infrastructure on the mountain. Yes, the snow-making pipes are old, but there is lots of new equipment at Burke: Electric compressors, water pumps, 2 new HS quads, a decent array of fan guns and pole mounted HKDs on their primary routes off the top. None of this can be said about Magic. They would be happy if they had the Willoughby chair in place of the the red chair- at least it is inspected. Most of this is not due to the investments of the current management, but it is all there.
Yes, that is true, and, as you have said, it is due to the previous ownership. I was only comparing management and not infrastructure.
The delta between $55M and the $30M(ish) estimate is an interesting story unto itself......depending on the veracity of that, it could make for a wonderful Digger article.
I think even with a $30M hotel, I think my earlier points about commitment from ownership are still very valid (not that anyone claimed they weren't).
If my gut is right and the Q-circus leaves town.....the suggested time frame seems to be within 18mos....and here is how we will know..........my reasoning is the snow making timeline. They put in STFU token investment in the mountain this year (and people can argue who really footed the bill on that all they want). The story we were all fed (someone keep me honest here) was that they contacted the company that did Sochi's system and got a soup to nuts snowmaking plan from that company.
Whether they said it directly or it was implied I believe the take-away was that the fan guns were the first "phase" if you will of implementing the full snowmaking plan. The rest of the plan would be implemented in phases once all financial resources are freed up from the hotel build etc. My gut tells me the fan guns would comprise a small portion of the full plan investment.
If current ownership is still in place come the summer of 2016 and the "resort" is not on the market, then I believe the expectation would be for them to begin earnestly investing in "Phase II" of the snowmaking implementation. Phase II should be robust from my perspective getting snow-guns and concurrent capacity well over the 100 gun mark. Phase II cannot be a bullshit effort of digging a friggin' hole and calling it a second holding pond and buying one more pump. To me going that cheap ass route is another STFU token improvement that won't meaningfully change shit as far as getting terrain open quickly and keeping it open in the face of warm ups etc.
I think even with a $30M hotel, I think my earlier points about commitment from ownership are still very valid (not that anyone claimed they weren't).
If my gut is right and the Q-circus leaves town.....the suggested time frame seems to be within 18mos....and here is how we will know..........my reasoning is the snow making timeline. They put in STFU token investment in the mountain this year (and people can argue who really footed the bill on that all they want). The story we were all fed (someone keep me honest here) was that they contacted the company that did Sochi's system and got a soup to nuts snowmaking plan from that company.
Whether they said it directly or it was implied I believe the take-away was that the fan guns were the first "phase" if you will of implementing the full snowmaking plan. The rest of the plan would be implemented in phases once all financial resources are freed up from the hotel build etc. My gut tells me the fan guns would comprise a small portion of the full plan investment.
If current ownership is still in place come the summer of 2016 and the "resort" is not on the market, then I believe the expectation would be for them to begin earnestly investing in "Phase II" of the snowmaking implementation. Phase II should be robust from my perspective getting snow-guns and concurrent capacity well over the 100 gun mark. Phase II cannot be a bullshit effort of digging a friggin' hole and calling it a second holding pond and buying one more pump. To me going that cheap ass route is another STFU token improvement that won't meaningfully change shit as far as getting terrain open quickly and keeping it open in the face of warm ups etc.
Similar threads
