Big GS Turns or Zipperlining Bumps

[deadheadskier]

IMO the risk of serious injury is greater carving an open slope, this is both due to extreme speeds and there's not much to stop you from rocketing off the trail. Bumps are (generally) done at much slower speeds and in the event of a fall, the bumps quickly slow a skier down.

As for what takes more skill, I think it's a pretty inconclusive arguement. There are great bumpers out there who can't carve a lick and vice versa. I've always been more focused on bumping skills simply because it opens up a much larger variaty of terrain for me to ski at a particular mountain

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Which is safer? Which takes more skill? Discuss.

Bumps are safer because you're going at a fraction of the speed..A hacker can skid GS turns but can't straightline a zipperline..It depends if the bumps are ice bumps..or corny hero bumps..plus most bumpruns I've been on don't have a consistent zipplerline so you have to pick a new line after 10-15 bumps which takes steeze and agility..I feel like actually making great GS carves..weight forward(most hackers are in the backseat)..and not scrubbing speed but accelerating out of the turns..is about equal with being a great bump skier...I feel like I'm pretty good at GS carves and pretty good at Bumps..I'd rather be a good all mountain skier than an awesome one trick poney..lol

 

[drjeff]

Bumps are safer because you're going at a fraction of the speed..A hacker can skid GS turns but can't straightline a zipperline..It depends if the bumps are ice bumps..or corny hero bumps..plus most bumpruns I've been on don't have a consistent zipplerline so you have to pick a new line after 10-15 bumps which takes steeze and agility..I feel like actually making great GS carves..weight forward(most hackers are in the backseat)..and not scrubbing speed but accelerating out of the turns..is about equal with being a great bump skier...I feel like I'm pretty good at GS carves and pretty good at Bumps..I'd rather be a good all mountain skier than an awesome one trick poney..lol

+1

 

[ctenidae]

Thread over. GSS made sense.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

You know AZ is becoming civilized when I'm the voice of reason..

 

[hammer]

You know AZ is entering the Twilight Zone when I'm the voice of reason..

Post corrected...

 

[mister moose]

My answer is both at once is hardest.

Back when I lived in Breckenridge, more than a few years ago, we had an on hill character named CJ Mueller. Google him.

Many times I would watch him ski, and the best place to watch was on Mach One.

We never skied with CJ. You might ride up the chair with CJ, but no one ever skied with him.

I'm 6-2, and CJ towered over me. He was not what you'd call compact, which some people think is an advantage in the bumps. But he didn't ski the bumps like anyone else.

Mach One was essentailly never groomed. Think Steins, OL, Upper CanAM. It used to be served by a creaky old doulble chair called the 7up that ran up the side that was so old the sheaves had no rubber, and you went kalunk, kalunk over each tower. It was about an 5-6 minute ride up, and to get to the entrance to Mach one, you had to skate uphill about 100 feet. The moguls grew to bathtub to VW size. There was no run-out, it was all steep, and the little lift served nothing else.

CJ would ski Mach One at about 40-45 mph, making 10-12 turns on the way down. Big, fast, GS turns on the biggest bumps around. You have to know the trail to fully appreciate this. As he skied, his upper body was quiet and he just skipped over the tops of the moguls like it was nothing. He'd use the full width of the trail. He was goiing so fast that the drop from one mogul top to the next was minimal, and consequently he needed very little A&E. Like a stone skipping across a pond. It looked so easy.

One day CJ set a personal record of something like 74 runs on Mach One. The lifties let him on without waiting, and he fed on oreos on the way up the lift. Skied continuously from 8-4.

He later went on to hold the world speed record on skis, and was on the US olympic team.

 

[deadheadskier]

You might ride up the chair with CJ, but no one ever skied with him.

You sure you're not talking about Chuck Norris?????

 

[snoseek]

For me bumps are much much more challenging. Big turns on groomed snow take almost effort and and seems pretty easy to learn. My worst falls have been on fast groomers, but I have a much bigger chance of falling on a bump run.


Does anyone else think that there are fewer good mogul skiers now than in years past?

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Its best to know how to do both. Better yet when you can switch style back and forth mid run.

Unless I'm training bump technique, this is exactly how I love to ski groomers. I'll start off with some real quick edge-to-edge short-radius turns, widen it up a bit, scrub some speed, ski some more quick turns, make some bigger arcs. For me, it depends entirely upon the trail, skier density, and snow conditions.

But I will say this: I have yet to meet a solid zipperline bump skier who can't handle (and handle well) anything on the mountain, including 35 degree groomed slopes.

Personally, I hate skiing groomers fast. I've studied the numbers a little too much. You'll rarely ever hear of a skiing death in a mogul field. But yet we hear every week or two about someone who was skiing too fast on a groomer, and hit a tree. And no, that doesn't mean the person was a bad skier. We all catch an edge here and there, and have to make a quick adjustment and lose a bit of control. It happens all the time. I don't want to die skiing fast on a groomer. Just last week (maybe two weeks ago), someone died at Mary Jane (mogul capital of the world). Was he skiing bumps? No. He was skiing Mary Jane Trail, a groomed (and rather tame) intermediate run. No thank you. I prefer to get my rush skiing a little slower, but with more s#~t in the way. Bumps, trees, rocks, cliffs, etc. That's where it's at for me.

 

[KevinF]

I was at Stowe a few weeks back. Liftline had gotten five or six inches of snow overnight -- it had gotten all chopped / mini-bumped up by this point and some guy came hauling down it making some of the sweetest GS turns I've ever seen. I was in awe. He was on little skinny race boards as well.

I see about the same number of people making "good" groomer turns (short, medium, large, whatever) as I see "good" skiers in the bumps -- i.e., not a whole lot. I don't subscribe to any particular "style" -- i.e., zipperline vs. the "rounder" line, big vs. short turns, etc. I do subscribe to the theory that "good skiing is good skiing". Sure, there are technique differences between railing GS turns vs. zipperlining bumps, but there are also a lot of similair things going on (especially at turn transition time). Truly learn how to do one aspect well, and you should be able to figure out anything else relatively quickly.

 

[deadheadskier]

Does anyone else think that there are fewer good mogul skiers now than in years past?

Yes......since the park became 'freestyle skiing'.


A dozen years ago, there was no such thing or at least not like there is today. You wanted to catch air? It was typically off of a well positioned bump in the middle of the mogul field.

I'm not saying that people who rip up a park can't ski bumps, but back then bumps WAS freestyle skiing, so I think people put a lot more time in on them.

I will say while the 'air' segment of mogul competition is light years ahead of where it was years ago, the actual skiing itself is not. I think Edgar Grospiron in his prime was better than anyone on the circuit today at the skiing part of moguls.

 

[kbroderick]

For me bumps are much much more challenging. Big turns on groomed snow take almost effort and and seems pretty easy to learn.

Big turns that take almost no effort aren't GS turns. GS turns involve a tremendous amount of force, and consequently a non-trivial amount of energy (although really good skiers often look like they're not exerting a whole lot of energy).

 

[riverc0il]

Let's put aside the easy aspect of the question right away, bumps are generally safer than fast GS turns. Big fast turns put the skier at risk of colliding with a ski if control is lost. If you loose control in the bumps, it is going to hurt, you could even break or twist something in the unlikely event you fall poorly, but it probably won't be serious and almost certainly will not result in death (unless you are skiing bumps in the trees, lol).

Which takes more skill? How do you mean? To do so proficiently or to do so with top skills. Most folks don't carve very well, IMO. Very few people lay down really nice and clean arcs (I am not including myself as someone who does excellent technical GS turns, though I am pretty sure I am better than most due to my race training). Look at top level racers and tell me that doesn't take an insane amount of skill. Any one can hack down a bump run and any one can make big turns spraying lots of snow and what not. Doing both of these with good form and at top performance level requires an amazing skill level that most skiers will never obtain.

I see just as few really good carving high speed GS skiers as I do really good zipper line bump skiers. Just my take, but these are both equally difficult to develop top skills in. If you want to compare "skiing on groomers" to "skiing on bumps" then by all means the bumps are harder. But specifically GS turns (which to me implies railroad tracks and not much spray)... I put the best GS skiers right up there with the best mogul skiers in terms of "skill"... they are just different skills.

GSS: +2

 

[snoseek]

Big turns that take almost no effort aren't GS turns. GS turns involve a tremendous amount of force, and consequently a non-trivial amount of energy (although really good skiers often look like they're not exerting a whole lot of energy).

I don't race but i can rail G.S style turns all day long pretty good. These turns don't really make me tired, as I suspect with other folks also. Most of the turn seems to be about angulation ect... (I really don't know $hit about how a good turn works). With gates I'm sure is real tough, but railing turns on groomers takes little effort. I don't think I even burn off the beer I drink. Natural terrain and bumps can be a workout though.

 

[SKidds]

.........but railing turns on groomers takes little effort. I don't think I even burn off the beer I drink.

I'd have to disagree with this......or maybe we need to define "railing". I'm a pretty proficient skier. I have (mostly ) confidently gotten down most everything from Paradise at MRG to 45+ degree chutes (Lake Chutes at Breck, East Wall at A Basin), love bumps, spend lots of time in the woods whenever possible, blah, blah, blah. Making wide, sweeping GS turns down a wide open groomer is a lot of fun and is pretty easy to do for an accomplished skier. But truely railing perfectly carved arcs at high sped down a steep trail? If you aren't feeling the burn you either aren't on your edges hard enough....or you aren't going as fast and hard as you think you are. I love the feeling of a hard carve under foot at speed, but it does take skilz to truely achieve it.

I think real high speed carving is more dangerous. Your margin for error really is small due to the speed, and your potential for injury is higher because even a helmet isn't going to protect you from getting up close and personal with a lift tower or a tree at speed.

That said, I think being able to confidently ski a zipperline through the bumps, and do it well, is harder as it requires an additional skillset that not everyone has taken the time to develop. And as others have said, I've never met a really good bump skier who couldn't ski anywhere else on the mountain with aplomb.

 

[Greg]

Wow. A post with both "skilz" and "aplomb". That's a first...

 

[snoseek]

I'd have to disagree with this......or maybe we need to define "railing". I'm a pretty proficient skier. I have (mostly ) confidently gotten down most everything from Paradise at MRG to 45+ degree chutes (Lake Chutes at Breck, East Wall at A Basin), love bumps, spend lots of time in the woods whenever possible, blah, blah, blah. Making wide, sweeping GS turns down a wide open groomer is a lot of fun and is pretty easy to do for an accomplished skier. But truely railing perfectly carved arcs at high sped down a steep trail? If you aren't feeling the burn you either aren't on your edges hard enough....or you aren't going as fast and hard as you think you are. I love the feeling of a hard carve under foot at speed, but it does take skilz to truely achieve it.

I think real high speed carving is more dangerous. Your margin for error really is small due to the speed, and your potential for injury is higher because even a helmet isn't going to protect you from getting up close and personal with a lift tower or a tree at speed.

That said, I think being able to confidently ski a zipperline through the bumps, and do it well, is harder as it requires an additional skillset that not everyone has taken the time to develop. And as others have said, I've never met a really good bump skier who couldn't ski anywhere else on the mountain with aplomb.

I'm pretty sure I'm riding my edges enough, this is what I do on lazy days. I'm not in the best shape in the world but have averaged around and often over 100 days per season for the better part of 15 years so maybe my leg muscles are stronger than the average persons. Really big fast turns with all that force is cruise control with more speed, skis are doing 90% of the work. To make turns like that on really steep uneven, ungroomed terrain is a different story. Agressively skiing moguls is way more challenging in my opinion, I have to make myself do it sometimes without finding the easiest line down through the bumps.

 

[SKidds]

I'm pretty sure I'm riding my edges enough, this is what I do on lazy days. I'm not in the best shape in the world but have averaged around and often over 100 days per season for the better part of 15 years so maybe my leg muscles are stronger than the average persons. Really big fast turns with all that force is cruise control with more speed, skis are doing 90% of the work. To make turns like that on really steep uneven, ungroomed terrain is a different story. Agressively skiing moguls is way more challenging in my opinion, I have to make myself do it sometimes without finding the easiest line down through the bumps.

While I prefer short radius turns myself, on lazy days/runs it is fun to let your skis do the work and carve GS turns down the mountain. When I'm not lazy and I'm in the mood I'll take what I consider a high speed run and try to rail down the mountain. For me that's pushing myself to maximum speed and the upper limits of my control on a wide open and empty slope. I find that to be pretty hard work. If you can do that every run without getting winded, or at least burning off a beer or two :beer:, my hat's off to you. Oh, and anyone who averages 100 days a season.......you suck! (read: I'm jealous :evil

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I will say while the 'air' segment of mogul competition is light years ahead of where it was years ago, the actual skiing itself is not. I think Edgar Grospiron in his prime was better than anyone on the circuit today at the skiing part of moguls.

I disagree. The turns and the basis of judging those turns has in fact changed quite a bit. And if you compare Edgar's best runs with DBS's (Dale Begg-Smith), for example, you'll see a pretty obvious advancement in turns. Yes, a lot of it is subtle, but it's affect on the overall turn is quite substantial.

Granted, Edgar was a phenomenal skier in his day. Watching his runs is still impressive. But things have certainly changed since the '92 Olympics.