Black Mountain, NH OPEN AGAIN more alive than ever

[2Planker]

I thought at one time the Vail ones had dropped out. Someone was bitching at one point about something the Chamber pass.

No At or Cat. Most of the other local places

 

[urungus]

No At or Cat. Most of the other local places

Website says Attitash and Wildcat are included

Valley Sampler Ski Pass | Chamber Resources

www.visitmwv.com

 

[thetrailboss]

Website says Attitash and Wildcat are included

Valley Sampler Ski Pass | Chamber Resources

www.visitmwv.com

$369 for how many days at each area?

Sorry, I just read the application. 5 days at each with blackouts. And this is a program for employees of a CoC member. That’s potentially a lot of locals. I can understand the PR concerns, but I also see Black’s POV as it is a locals area. Part of its struggles have been because it hasn’t made money. Giving away skiing to lots of locals at a steep discount is not sustainable. All of the other areas have much more business and are solid destination resorts. To them it is PR that they can afford.

I’ve seen this movie before with locals being asked to step up and patronize their local mountain rather than ski on free or discount days and expecting tourists to support the mountain when the tourist traffic was not sustainable. Burke had the same issue in 2000 when it briefly became a quasi-non-profit entity with lots of generous benefactors. Those who were organizing the reopening made it very clear that locals HAD to buy season passes and patronize it instead of looking for handouts. The mountain dropped pass prices. Local businesses who relied on the mountain sold passes and promoted the program. It worked but it was a reality check. Lots and lots of locals bought passes including many who never had before. They understood that the mountain was an economic driver to the economy and was not sustainable. Burke reopened and has stayed open.

It’s hard to complain about not getting a discounted ticket when your mountain can barely survive. You either have that discount and an unsustainable business that will tank and hurt your neighbors and really impacts the community or you pay something in order to make it sustainable. That’s the reality and it sucks.

Locals are lucky that Indy has stepped in two years in a row to save the place and are investing a lot of money and time into an area that would have died. And it seems that they are not expecting a huge payday if any. That really says something.

 

[Newpylong]

Likely shutting down today, pond is dry. It was dredged this year too yielding 25% more storage. The river is that low.

 

[Mainer]

Burke is completely different. They are the only game in town. Losing that mountain would be a huge hit to the local economy.

Black has 6 mountains to compete with in the local area. It has the oldest lifts and snowmaking. Locals on the chamber pass have already paid for their skiing. These people are your servers, housekeepers, retail clerks, contractors etc. They don’t have extra money to spend. Given the choice of using what you already paid for or paying extra to ski. Very few are going to pay extra, that is a fact. So you lose the bar money and the word of mouth advertising.
If the Indy pass decided to drop black after people had already purchased the pass, Indy pass holders would just go elsewhere to ski. They wouldn’t pay twice for what was promised.
It sucks because black is a great little mountain. It has a great vibe. It has lots of flaws but they add to the character of the place. But to the people that use the chamber pass, they aren’t buying a day pass. However if they have a great day there, they will tell the many people they service about it. Indy is always talking about how they help the ski communities. Support independent ski areas. How about you step up and support the locals that keep the valley running.

 

[2Planker]

Website says Attitash and Wildcat are included

Valley Sampler Ski Pass | Chamber Resources

www.visitmwv.com

OK, then they've brought them back

 

[urungus]

Burke is completely different. They are the only game in town. Losing that mountain would be a huge hit to the local economy.

Black has 6 mountains to compete with in the local area. It has the oldest lifts and snowmaking. Locals on the chamber pass have already paid for their skiing. These people are your servers, housekeepers, retail clerks, contractors etc. They don’t have extra money to spend. Given the choice of using what you already paid for or paying extra to ski. Very few are going to pay extra, that is a fact. So you lose the bar money and the word of mouth advertising.
If the Indy pass decided to drop black after people had already purchased the pass, Indy pass holders would just go elsewhere to ski. They wouldn’t pay twice for what was promised.
It sucks because black is a great little mountain. It has a great vibe. It has lots of flaws but they add to the character of the place. But to the people that use the chamber pass, they aren’t buying a day pass. However if they have a great day there, they will tell the many people they service about it. Indy is always talking about how they help the ski communities. Support independent ski areas. How about you step up and support the locals that keep the valley running.

If it wasn’t for Indy Pass, Black would be permanently closed right now. What have you done to “step up and support” Black other than complain that you no longer get a discount ?

 

[eatskisleep]

Likely shutting down today, pond is dry. It was dredged this year too yielding 25% more storage. The river is that low.

Welp, that’s not good…

 

[Mainer]

When I go there, I always buy drinks. I always tell people what a great mountain it is. If my friends come up with their families I bring them there. I have rented out the place in the summer for an event.

 

[thetrailboss]

Burke is completely different. They are the only game in town. Losing that mountain would be a huge hit to the local economy.

There is not going to be an exact comparison, but I think that the location is not relevant to my points. Plus in the same radius as the area you are using as a reference, Burke has Jay, Cannon, and even Bretton Woods nearby.

Black has 6 mountains to compete with in the local area. It has the oldest lifts and snowmaking. Locals on the chamber pass have already paid for their skiing. These people are your servers, housekeepers, retail clerks, contractors etc. They don’t have extra money to spend. Given the choice of using what you already paid for or paying extra to ski. Very few are going to pay extra, that is a fact. So you lose the bar money and the word of mouth advertising.

First, I completely understand and empathize. While my current situation is different, there were many years in my life where I could not afford as an NEK local, or a recent graduate, to buy a season pass or ski as much as I wanted. Hell, if you go back 20 years ago in this forum you can see that I was penny pinching like others. I've been there. But on the other side is the financial reality of running a ski area which is an expensive venture. Clearly the collective sense of entitlement you mention and the "bar money" are not keeping Black Mountain sustainable.

If the Indy pass decided to drop black after people had already purchased the pass, Indy pass holders would just go elsewhere to ski. They wouldn’t pay twice for what was promised.

Again, none of us know what really happened here. The only people who know are at Black itself. I understand the concen but before we assume that there are any broken promises I think it would be best for you to communicate with them directly.

It sucks because black is a great little mountain. It has a great vibe. It has lots of flaws but they add to the character of the place. But to the people that use the chamber pass, they aren’t buying a day pass.

This. Not buying a season pass or even a regular day pass is why Black was in dire straits because of the lack of business. When I counted last night, there were I think 10 areas on this CoC pass sharing $369 of revenue. Each area was agreeing to a maximum of five days each. So if someone were to max out that pass and use all their days, then each area would theoretically receive $7.00 per day (assuming that the revenue share was evenly split). You can't be serious in suggesting that Black can operate on this. Hell, my old town hill that is run by volunteers, the Lyndon Outing Club, can't even survive on $7.00 per person. The other areas that are operated by Vail, Fairbanks, Omni, and Boyne are billion dollar ventures that have enough traffic to afford this kind of promotion as a cost of doing business. Black can't afford to do so and demanding that they do is not reasonable.

However if they have a great day there, they will tell the many people they service about it. Indy is always talking about how they help the ski communities. Support independent ski areas. How about you step up and support the locals that keep the valley running.

Again, Indy has subsidized the mountain for you for two years now. Otherwise it would be NELSAP. That would not help the locals.

When I go there, I always buy drinks. I always tell people what a great mountain it is. If my friends come up with their families I bring them there. I have rented out the place in the summer for an event.

So it's clear that you like Black. Can you not afford to buy a season pass? Are you going to buy a share when it becomes a coop? I just don't understand how you can be upset about losing a promotion that netted Black maybe $7.00 per day and likely cost them money and still say you love the place. There's a disconnect there.

 

[millerm277]

This. Not buying a season pass or even a regular day pass is why Black was in dire straits because of the lack of business. When I counted last night, there were I think 10 areas on this CoC pass sharing $369 of revenue. Each area was agreeing to a maximum of five days each. So if someone were to max out that pass and use all their days, then each area would theoretically receive $7.00 per day (assuming that the revenue share was evenly split). You can't be serious in suggesting that Black can operate on this. Hell, my old town hill that is run by volunteers, the Lyndon Outing Club, can't even survive on $7.00 per person. The other areas that are operated by Vail, Fairbanks, Omni, and Boyne are billion dollar ventures that have enough traffic to afford this kind of promotion as a cost of doing business. Black can't afford to do so and demanding that they do is not reasonable.

I'm not exactly disagreeing that this product may not be reasonable for Black to have joined. But quoting the financials of any pass product that offers more than a couple days of skiing as one where the average purchaser is expected to use every possible day of it, is pretty a pretty absurd way to make your point.

You can theoretically get dozens of days of skiing in on an Indy Pass in the Northeast, and the resort would likely (conceptually) get less than $10/day out of you that way too. The average purchaser though, uses it about 4 days a year - which produces a very different number.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm not exactly disagreeing that this product may not be reasonable for Black to have joined. But quoting the financials of any pass product that offers more than a couple days of skiing as one where the average purchaser is expected to use every possible day of it, is pretty a pretty absurd way to make your point.

You can theoretically get dozens of days of skiing in on an Indy Pass in the Northeast, and the resort would likely (conceptually) get less than $10/day out of you that way too. The average purchaser though, uses it about 4 days a year - which produces a very different number.

True, but again, we do not know the actual arrangement. Even if one used the pass, say, 10 days, then those areas are getting $36.00 per day theoretically. Even That still is not sustainable for an operation. And since this product is in a limited geographic area, unlike Indy, I would imagine that users get a fair amount of days on that product.

We're also assuming that the resorts receive any compensation at all which may not be the case since this is a CoC promotion that may be just comped by the ski area with the proceeds going to the CoC or charity.

 

[Newpylong]

1K views · 98 reactions | Our snowmaking system is going full throttle, and the Black Mountain team is all hands on deck. Snowmaking is happening at the summit for the first time... | By Black Mountain | Facebook

Our snowmaking system is going full throttle, and the Black Mountain team is all hands on deck. Snowmaking is happening at the summit for the first time...

www.facebook.com

One of the most fun fire ups I've ever done.

 

[2Planker]

1K views · 98 reactions | Our snowmaking system is going full throttle, and the Black Mountain team is all hands on deck. Snowmaking is happening at the summit for the first time... | By Black Mountain | Facebook

Our snowmaking system is going full throttle, and the Black Mountain team is all hands on deck. Snowmaking is happening at the summit for the first time...

www.facebook.com

One of the most fun fire ups I've ever done.

Thanx Newpy.
That's definitely good to hear. Keep up the good work

 

[2planks2coasts]

$369 for how many days at each area?

Sorry, I just read the application. 5 days at each with blackouts. And this is a program for employees of a CoC member. That’s potentially a lot of locals. I can understand the PR concerns, but I also see Black’s POV as it is a locals area. Part of its struggles have been because it hasn’t made money. Giving away skiing to lots of locals at a steep discount is not sustainable. All of the other areas have much more business and are solid destination resorts. To them it is PR that they can afford........

When I go there, I always buy drinks. I always tell people what a great mountain it is. If my friends come up with their families I bring them there. I have rented out the place in the summer for an event.

There's certainly two ways to view the survival of small local mountains. Mogensen believes that it's pretty much revenue producing Indy pass visits only, while many small operators have relied on reciprocals and other local arrangements like No Boundaries and the NoCo Chamber pass to spur both word of mouth marketing and incidental spend. Interestingly enough, most of the small multi resort programs are totally ok with their members also being a part of Indy. Indy OTOH isn't ok with their members having side deals (with certain exceptions). Plenty of small mountains have abandoned their local arrangements to join Indy. Some, like Mt Ashland in OR, regretted it and left Indy to restore those deals. As Mogensen is personally running Black this year, I certainly don't expect the mountain to play well with others.

 

[Mainer]

The mountains donate their passes to the chamber. And in return the chamber advertises the greater Mount Washington valley, including all the ski areas. The ski passes and chamber membership are the biggest source of income for the chamber. They only sell 300 passes. It is a nice thing that the ski areas do for the community. It is a community supporting each other. Indy wants to turn black mtn into a co-op. Indy stated at their meeting the community will buy the shares of the mountain. But then Indy takes away the pass privileges that the local community has always enjoyed. That is not supporting the local community. It seems pretty hypocritical to me, that is all I am saying.

 

[AdironRider]

Yeah because giving the Chamber free passes worked out so well for Black they were going to close.

The idea of just giving shit away and making it up down the line in cheeseburger and beer sales doesn't work. That is why hundreds of indy ski areas closed up shop over the past 40 years.

Meanwhile, Indy actual does drive significant revenue to ski areas. Even tiny places like Dartmouth Skiway see significant revenue from this arrangement. Then you also get the cheeseburger and beer sales on top of it.

This is nothing more than you bitching about not getting a discount. You are not a good customer for them, or really any ski area if that is your prerogative. Save the community bullshit. If you only judge community based on who gives you the most savings I would argue you don't actually care about that community and only about yourself.

 

[Mainer]

I join the chamber every year and pay for my employees passes. I’m a business owner in this community.
Indy pass make a bunch of fluff movies about how much they do for the community. But then they take over management of a ski area and only do what will make them money. I’m calling their bullshit. Black mtn took a big hit with the local community with the ski the whites fiasco. Black was in the right, but it still looked bad. They were doing pretty well until then. This will just hurt their reputation even more. Not a great move when you wanna start a co-op.

 

[thetrailboss]

The mountains donate their passes to the chamber. And in return the chamber advertises the greater Mount Washington valley, including all the ski areas. The ski passes and chamber membership are the biggest source of income for the chamber. They only sell 300 passes. It is a nice thing that the ski areas do for the community. It is a community supporting each other. Indy wants to turn black mtn into a co-op. Indy stated at their meeting the community will buy the shares of the mountain. But then Indy takes away the pass privileges that the local community has always enjoyed. That is not supporting the local community. It seems pretty hypocritical to me, that is all I am saying.

Ah, OK. I get it. You're angry that you lost your free skiing at Black. Again, the bar money and sense of entitlement did not take care of Black's bottom line. I imagine that in another ten posts or so you will disclose that you work for the CoC.

 

[thetrailboss]

There's certainly two ways to view the survival of small local mountains. Mogensen believes that it's pretty much revenue producing Indy pass visits only, while many small operators have relied on reciprocals and other local arrangements like No Boundaries and the NoCo Chamber pass to spur both word of mouth marketing and incidental spend. Interestingly enough, most of the small multi resort programs are totally ok with their members also being a part of Indy. Indy OTOH isn't ok with their members having side deals (with certain exceptions). Plenty of small mountains have abandoned their local arrangements to join Indy. Some, like Mt Ashland in OR, regretted it and left Indy to restore those deals. As Mogensen is personally running Black this year, I certainly don't expect the mountain to play well with others.

While I know that last year there was some rumbles about Indy being restrictive of its members, I have yet to see anything that this same mentality is what is behind ending other deals at Black. One poster is assuming that his CoC deal ended because of mean old Indy Pass. The same folks who are dumping a lot of money to reopen an almost defunct business. We have not heard anything definitive other than the fact that Indy stepped in at probably the last minute to revive the place. Could it be that they are busy running around trying to get things open that they have not had a minute to look at some of the local deals that they used to do?

Additionally, the industry has been moving away from these "local arrangements", discounts, and handouts for quite some time. Try to buy a discounted ticket to a Vail resort in a local ski shop. They don't exist anymore. The business model is all about the season pass.

Frankly, I will wait to hear from the mountain itself. If folks are this angry about how bad Indy is then they will love how Vail and Alterra do business.