border patrol

[Euler]

We like to burst out in a rousing song of "This Land is Your Land" as we roll into the checkpoint!

 

[mlctvt]

We all better watch out at these check stops. The border patrol might view our skis as weapons and hold us as enemy combatants without cause. Seems to be standard practice lately, under guise of the patriot act.
Have we all become too busy with our lives to be concerned by this? Or do we think- someone else who's really concerned will do something about it so we won't have too?
Our government is in the business of spreading fear and its working.

 

[ctenidae]

I don't believe there's some malevolent force operating within the government, bent on eliminating our rights and shredding the Constitution.

I do believe that there is a potential for undertakings "for the common good" to go too far, and I absolutely believe that there is a cumulative effect. While "slippery slope" is not my favorite term, there's really not a better one for it. Once upon a time there was no special FIS court, there was no such thing as "no knock" warrants, there was no such thing as warrantless wiretaping. There is now.

While border stops may be for teh purpose of safeguarding the population from threats such as terrorists, illegal immigrants, or smuggling, random stops 90 miles form the border are probably not the most effective method fo dealing witht he problem. It's an easily instituted and readily identifiable way to prove DHS is doing something, to be sure. Even if that something amounts to nothing. So, what we have here is a minor inconvenience and a small infringement on our rights, with little or no benefit. That, I have a problem with.

 

[from_the_NEK]

What is unconstitutional about an arrest for DUI? :blink:

Checking people to make sure that they aren't driving impaired is for safety reasons...the constitution doesn't have rights that allow people to do stupid things that endanger the lives of others...

But the DUI stops turn out to be a drag net for all sorts of other minor traffic violations, not just DUI. I got a stupid $80 ticket for my inspection being overdue at one of these stops one evening at 5:30 pm on a Thursday! Who the hell is driving around drunk at 5:30 in East Burke? The guy stopped in front of me apparently had expired registration. These are hardly "stupid things that endanger the lives of others" (personally stupid that I should have had my less than one year old truck inspected for seat belts and head lights that work is another thing :roll: ). I didn't see anyone pulled over for DUI.

 

[jack97]

I don't believe there's some malevolent force operating within the government, bent on eliminating our rights and shredding the Constitution.

No..... but they come in believing they know what is best for the people.

BTW, me thinks the evils are passive trollers......everything they post has been so polarizing

 

[from_the_NEK]

I believe the location for the check-point in question south of the I89-I91 interchange is that I-91 continues toward NYC from there. This is a higher profile target than any cities accessed by I89 or I93. I have heard that they do catch quite a few drug runners at this checkpoint (e.g. Boston Globe).
I agree that checkpoints are stepping on our freedom. However, the quick stop as it is currently set up ("Are you US citizens? Okay. Move along.") is as much as I'm willing to put up with.
If I have to start producing ID or a passport, I'm NOT down with it and my congressman/senators are going to hear about it.
I wonder what it is like if you are a Canadian trying to cross through the checkpoints after already having wait 2 hours at the actual border and go through the interrogation process they have there.

 

[loafer89]

Since this has devolved into a political thread.

Things are ok in your world, so everything must be ok? Ed rubbed me the wrong way when he showed up, but he and a few others here have legitimate concerns regarding our civil liberties. Is a random border patrol something to get upset about, no. The seeming continual degradation of our privacy and individual rights, absolutely yes.

The Nazi comparison is a little extreme, but some of you might remember this little number:

Martin Neimoller

 

[loafer89]

How about this good little piece, it must be in the Killington ski report manual:lol::lol::

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels.

 

[Dr Skimeister]

One point that is not clear in this discussion is what is the purpose of these stops? We're assuming, being that the authorities in question are Border Patrol, that the stops are intended to check for illegal entrants to the US. I don't recall ever in the stops I've experienced along the Northway being asked for any sort of identification. Is my being caucasian and not having a foreign accent enough proof that I'm not up to no good? Assuming that it is an attempt to be proactive in a quest for illegals, if I were of Arabic origin or wore a turban, would the cursory stop be more involved? Would documentaion be required? Would my vehicle be searched? Would I feel like I was being "profiled"?

I'd also question if the intention of the stops are to be sure illegals aren't traveling on major routes from our borders, what would be the consequence if a car being questioned had the smell of burnt substance when the officer approached the window? Does a random stop like this allow the car and passangers to then be searched?

I personally don't like the idea.

 

[andyzee]

Dr Skimeister and from_the_NEK bring up some very good and valid points. A check point is setup for one thing, yet the possibility of being arrested or fined for something else exists. Now as valid as the reason for setting up the check point may be, what assurance do we have that this was the intent?

 

[Greg]

Dr Skimeister and from_the_NEK bring up some very good and valid points. A check point is setup for one thing, yet the possibility of being arrested or fined for something else exists. Now as valid as the reason for setting up the check point may be, what assurance do we have that this was the intent?

If you're not doing or possessing anything illegal than you have nothing to worry about.

Riiiiiiiiight?

 

[ed-drum]

Gee, I guess I got people to THINK. Maybe that was my intention. When I joined the Air Force, I took an oath that went "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC." Domestic is the key word here.It does NOT say to support the policies of our government blindly. I didn't know that at the time (as now) that where I was going to be sent was dangerous. I didn't know that they were killing us there, for the "news" didn't report it in the states. I can't go into details because of my secret clearance, but you will NEVER forget the smell of the pungent aroma of blood mixed with gunpowder. I received the USAF Outstanding Unit Award for Valor, along with TEN years of nightmares. Searching cars or persons without cause is illegal and unconstitutional. Stopping someone without suspicion is ILLEGAL. Having a temporary roadblock without prior knowledge by the local prosecutor's office is illegal. Detaining without cause is illegal. Check into flexyourrights.org on the internet. I am NOT a lawyer. Hitler did NOT take the Jews away at first. He exterminated the mentally and physically handicapped, then blacks, then the gypsies and then the Jewish people. The mother of a friend of mine survived the concentration camps. "Arbeit Macht Frei." Knowledge is power. NOT money. Ed.

 

[Dr Skimeister]

If you're not doing or possessing anything illegal than you have nothing to worry about.

Riiiiiiiiight?

That's not the way this country is supposed to run, Greg. Innocent until proven guilty is etched in stone. Stopping me or anyone else just to be sure I'm not doing or possessing anything illegal smacks of invasion on our supposed most basic of rights.

I fear that the mentality that it's OK as long as I'm not doing anything illegal opens the door for further erosions of our liberty.

 

[ed-drum]

Oh, one last thing. Border patrol discussions go beyond politics. Political discussion, in my opinion are things like Republicans vs. Democrats, I don't like the president, etc.. Border patrol discussions go beyond politics, I believe. This is our freedom at stake. Freedom to ski, freedom to go to the movies, freedom to read the books that we want to, freedom to be with who we please. This is NOT a "conspiracy theory". If we all believe that it is, then we are all doomed. If anyone is upset by this discussion, GOOD! We should be upset. "A true Democracy needs a loyal opposition." Read my introductory post. Due some research. Talk amongst yourselves on the chairlift, in the lodge, EVERYWHERE. America is NOT a Democracy, it's a Republic by definition. There is a difference. It seems that by the number of friendly private messages that I received, I seem to have a lot of people on my side. You are true friends. Ed.

 

[roark]

If you're not doing or possessing anything illegal than you have nothing to worry about.

Riiiiiiiiight?

I know you're kidding but this line comes up far too often these days, and it displays a shockingly profound lack of comprehension of the constitution and the fundamentals this country is supposed to stand for.

Bad Greg, no bumps for you! :razz:

 

[loafer89]

My experience with a police state is limited to crossing Checkpoint Charlie on July 1st, 1989 at the age of 17 and even though the wall fell only a few months later, it was still a deadly business to cross the border. I had to go alone as my uncle was German and not permitted to cross as Germany obviously was not part of the victorious allied countries. A 17 year old had recently been shot and killed trying to cross into West Berlin in May, so I was more than a bit scared.

The trip into East Berlin gave me a new found respect for a democratic nation and for the freedoms that alot of us take for granted from time to time. I am curious if the Stazi kept a file on my crossing as they most likely did.

 

[Greg]

Gee, I guess I got people to THINK. Maybe that was my intention. When I joined the Air Force, I took an oath that went "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC." Domestic is the key word here.It does NOT say to support the policies of our government blindly. I didn't know that at the time (as now) that where I was going to be sent was dangerous. I didn't know that they were killing us there, for the "news" didn't report it in the states. I can't go into details because of my secret clearance, but you will NEVER forget the smell of the pungent aroma of blood mixed with gunpowder. I received the USAF Outstanding Unit Award for Valor, along with TEN years of nightmares. Searching cars or persons without cause is illegal and unconstitutional. Stopping someone without suspicion is ILLEGAL. Having a temporary roadblock without prior knowledge by the local prosecutor's office is illegal. Detaining without cause is illegal. Check into flexyourrights.org on the internet. I am NOT a lawyer. Hitler did NOT take the Jews away at first. He exterminated the mentally and physically handicapped, then blacks, then the gypsies and then the Jewish people. The mother of a friend of mine survived the concentration camps. "Arbeit Macht Frei." Knowledge is power. NOT money. Ed.

Thank you for your service to the country.

However, your service does not make your opinion more valid than anyone else's.

Finally, not everything you read on the internet is true.

That's not the way this country is supposed to run, Greg. Innocent until proven guilty is etched in stone. Stopping me or anyone else just to be sure I'm not doing or possessing anything illegal smacks of invasion on our supposed most basic of rights.

I fear that the mentality that it's OK as long as I'm not doing anything illegal opens the door for further erosions of our liberty.

I think you missed the winkie. Still, I stand by my statement. If you're not doing anything illegal, the chances of getting something random "pinned" on you is slim to none. I'm no goody-goody, but say, for example, you have a bag in your car and you get caught with it as a result of a border patrol stop, then you need to own the responsibility of having it. It's the risk you have to assume and you can't fault the DHS and argue that your civil liberties were violated if you get caught. Just keeping it real.

 

[riverc0il]

I don't believe there's some malevolent force operating within the government, bent on eliminating our rights and shredding the Constitution.

I do believe that there is a potential for undertakings "for the common good" to go too far, and I absolutely believe that there is a cumulative effect.

100% completely agree. However, this is the least of our problems. It is terribly unfortunate that free Americans need be stopped on an Interstate Highway and questioned but there are much bigger problems that are being pursued in the name of the public good that are dubious and questionable at best.

While "slippery slope" is not my favorite term, there's really not a better one for it.

Sure there is. The term is called "precedent" and much of our legal, civil, and governmental systems are based on it. Once a precedent is set, it is much easier to justify further continuations erosion of rights and liberties. It is why the NRA is so set against any and all implementation of gun regulation and why any other special interest group puts up a complete and unreasonable wall in which they do not want to budge even if a compromise really is in everyone's best interest. Few things in this world and country are black and white but to give in is to set a precedent that can be expanded upon and justify further changes. Some may can shenanigans via semantics and that I am actually just elaborating on a "slippery slope" but precedent implies legal justification and is the big difference in the terminology.

 

[deadheadskier]

Still, I stand by my statement. If you're not doing anything illegal, the chances of getting something random "pinned" on you is slim to none. I'm no goody-goody, but say, for example, you have a bag in your car and you get caught with it as a result of a border patrol stop, then you need to own the responsibility of having it.

There is the statement, if you're going to commit a crime, you better be willing to pay the fine and do time. I do agree with that. I also feel however that an authority needs to have just cause for search. Driving on the highway, walking down the street etc....this should not happen.

I used to live near the Sunshine Daydream Camp in West Virginia, which regularly held small Woodstock style music festivals. Local authorities and the DEA would set up road blocks specifically looking to bust people for drugs going to these festivals. Granted, if you had nothing on you, you had nothing to worry about. That said, they were profiling, searching and arresting literally hundres of people. If I was involved in this where my car got searched because I had a Phish sticker on it, I'd be pretty BS. That is a violation of civil liberties in my opinion.

 

[riverc0il]

Assuming that it is an attempt to be proactive in a quest for illegals, if I were of Arabic origin or wore a turban, would the cursory stop be more involved? Would documentaion be required? Would my vehicle be searched? Would I feel like I was being "profiled"?

The feds know that profiling does not work (whether they implement procedure according to knowledge is a different story...). Once profiling begins, counterfeits are recruited to take over jobs. This is currently happening in the Palestine-Israel conflict, many bombers are not being caught because they don't match the "profile". Once you start focusing on the people that match a profile, you begin getting lax on everyone else that should be handled in a similar fashion. Additionally, people are recruited to carry out tasks that do not match the profile being looked for.