Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[threecy]

Veteran's Memorial Park, in Webster (I presume you are referring to), is not FNSP.

I was not referring to Veteran's Memorial Park in Webster.

The place we refer to today as Franconia Notch State Park (FNSP) was originally called "Franconia Notch Forest Reservation and Memorial Park," which was dedicated "as a memorial to the men and women of New Hampshire who served the nation in times of war."

That sounds particularly terrible. And, if true, would certainly warrant a push for an official apology and a clarification of the rules. And I say that as a freedom loving, anti-lease New Hampshirite.

It is true, and there's more backstory to it that makes it even worse, but it has no place on these forums.

Threecy, would you be willing to pay a special use fee for ski trail hiking?

Would you be willing to wear a "day use" ticket with the legal jargon on the back?

For a privately owned ski area? Sure. For a ski area on public land that is supposed to be free use, I don't agree to paying a special use fee.

 

[thetrailboss]

I was not referring to Veteran's Memorial Park in Webster.

The place we refer to today as Franconia Notch State Park (FNSP) was originally called "Franconia Notch Forest Reservation and Memorial Park," which was dedicated "as a memorial to the men and women of New Hampshire who served the nation in times of war."

It is true, and there's more backstory to it that makes it even worse, but it has no place on these forums.

I think you need to provide more context to this claim. I'd understand if the the guy was snowshoeing right up the middle of the trail during a busy holiday.

And with regards to special use fees, do you honestly think that a private operator is going to give away access for free?

 

[witch hobble]

For a privately owned ski area? Sure. For a ski area on public land that is supposed to be free use, I don't agree to paying a special use fee.

Where does the access stop? Can you climb the towers? Walk on the snowmaking pipe? Should you have to sign in and out, and sign a liability release?

What is your opinion of the Flume? What are you paying for there? The carpentry?

 

[deadheadskier]

do you honestly think that a private operator is going to give away access for free?

of course!!!

just write it in the lease

all the NH resident deals are going to be the same. It's going to be the same ole' Cannon everyone seems to love because you write it in the lease!!!!

the lease will make the experience for every visitor to Cannon better than they've ever experienced it before and the state will rake in the financial rewards. Threecy says a lease guarantees it!!!!!

experience>money

 

[threecy]

I think you need to provide more context to this claim. I'd understand if the the guy was snowshoeing right up the middle of the trail during a busy holiday.

The gentleman was not snowshoeing up the middle of a busy trail. He has had no issues in snowshoeing and hiking at other areas, such as Waterville, Wildcat, Saddleback, etc.

And with regards to special use fees, do you honestly think that a private operator is going to give away access for free?

Responsible non skiing access? Absolutely.

This past winter, I snowshoed on ski trails at Waterville, Saddleback, Wildcat, and Sugarbush (South) with no issues whatsoever. Sugarbush's customer service in fact gave me a free map and directed me to where they recommended I start my ascent. Saddleback provides a marked recommended route up their trails in the summer at no use (and in the winter the staff was helpful in recommending a suggested route). Wildcat has in the past mowed the Polecat for easier foot use (and for a foot race they have as well). Waterville's Sosman Trail literally empties onto the top of the ski area.

 

[witch hobble]

The gentleman was not snowshoeing up the middle of a busy trail. He has had no issues in snowshoeing and hiking at other areas, such as Waterville, Wildcat, Saddleback, etc.

Wait. So he was not specifically going to the war memorial "on the east side of Profile Lake" that has been referenced in the news recently. You are telling me that this story is about a Vietnam vet, presumably dressed for outdoor winter travel, who was stopped from hiking up what most of us would call Cannon Mountain Ski Area? And what you are providing is some historical background of the naming of the whole park as a veteran's memorial park?
Unfortunately, politicians have long, long paid lip service to veterans and "the troops" in order to push their agenda. Still goes on today, and will forever. But I am less inclined to be sympathetic to him and his story if your opinion is that his veteran status should give him immunity.

Please provide more context.

 

[threecy]

Wait. So he was not specifically going to the war memorial "on the east side of Profile Lake" that has been referenced in the news recently. You are telling me that this story is about a Vietnam vet, presumably dressed for outdoor winter travel, who was stopped from hiking up what most of us would call Cannon Mountain Ski Area? And what you are providing is some historical background of the naming of the whole park as a veteran's memorial park?
Unfortunately, politicians have long, long paid lip service to veterans and "the troops" in order to push their agenda. Still goes on today, and will forever. But I am less inclined to be sympathetic to him and his story if your opinion is that his veteran status should give him immunity.

Please provide more context.

The lease of the ski area has been recently called into question because the ski area is located in the "Franconia Notch Forest Reservation and Memorial Park," which was dedicated in 1928, a decade before the Tram was installed. It has been said by some that a private operator should not be allowed to run the ski area, because the land is 'sacred.'

Under present government operational control, 264 acres of the 'sacred land' is closed year-round to non-skiers, veterans or otherwise. The gentleman I was referring to was trying to access the summit of Cannon Mountain via the ski trails, as opposed to the rough Kinsman Ridge hiking trail. He was told to leave.

 

[deadheadskier]

Live for Free or Die man

can't wait for the lessee to takes over. I'm sure it can be written into the lease that I can ride my snowmobile and four wheeler up the trails of Cannon

 

[witch hobble]

Live for Free or Die man

can't wait for the lessee to takes over. I'm sure it can be written into the lease that I can ride my snowmobile and four wheeler up the trails of Cannon

He may be swilling the tea....but you must be on the sauce.

 

[deadheadskier]

He may be swilling the tea....but you must be on the sauce.

:lol:

 

[witch hobble]

The lease of the ski area has been recently called into question because the ski area is located in the "Franconia Notch Forest Reservation and Memorial Park," which was dedicated in 1928, a decade before the Tram was installed. It has been said by some that a private operator should not be allowed to run the ski area, because the land is 'sacred.'

Under present government operational control, 264 acres of the 'sacred land' is closed year-round to non-skiers, veterans or otherwise. The gentleman I was referring to was trying to access the summit of Cannon Mountain via the ski trails, as opposed to the rough Kinsman Ridge hiking trail. He was told to leave.

So he was not specifically looking to commemorate his fallen comrades? He was trying to hike up open ski terrain? And was treated the same as if you or I had been spotted doing the same?

Who is liable for the collision between the downhill skier and uphill hiker? Who assumes what inherent risk?

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

The lease of the ski area has been recently called into question because the ski area is located in the "Franconia Notch Forest Reservation and Memorial Park," which was dedicated in 1928, a decade before the Tram was installed. It has been said by some that a private operator should not be allowed to run the ski area, because the land is 'sacred.'

Under present government operational control, 264 acres of the 'sacred land' is closed year-round to non-skiers, veterans or otherwise. The gentleman I was referring to was trying to access the summit of Cannon Mountain via the ski trails, as opposed to the rough Kinsman Ridge hiking trail. He was told to leave.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your arguments, comments, etc, but this one bothers me. I for one, no matter the situation, can understand why a ski resort may not allow people to hike ski trails during the winter. If they do, so be it, but if they don't no big deal. In this day and age of a litigated society I wouldn't allow people to hike on my ski trails (if I in another life with millions to piss away owned a ski resort).

 

[threecy]

So he was not specifically looking to commemorate his fallen comrades? He was trying to hike up open ski terrain? And was treated the same as if you or I had been spotted doing the same?

No, he was hiking for his own recreation in a park dedicated to veterans such as him.

Who is liable for the collision between the downhill skier and uphill hiker? Who assumes what inherent risk?

Per the skiers responsibility code:

-Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
-People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.

 

[witch hobble]

Oh, I'm familiar with "the code". But with uphill traffic in the equation, both of those tenets could be interpreted both ways. And the hiker has likely not been issued a ticket with the commandments on it, and may not be familiar with ski area rules and ettiquette.

 

[threecy]

Oh, I'm familiar with "the code". But with uphill traffic in the equation, both of those tenets could be interpreted both ways. And the hiker has likely not been issued a ticket with the commandments on it, and may not be familiar with ski area rules and ettiquette.

A hiker would be moving at 1 to 2 MPH uphill. A skier would be moving at perhaps 10 to 30 MPH downhill (or a lot more if tucking, racing, etc.). Downhill object has the right of way.

 

[witch hobble]

Downhill object has the right of way.

That is not what the code says anymore, even if that is how we all interpret it.

 

[threecy]

That is not what the code says anymore, even if that is how we all interpret it.

-Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
-People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.

That's a direct quote from the NSAA

 

[witch hobble]

Always stay in control.
People ahead of you have the right of way.
Stop in a safe place for you and others.
Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.
Use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
Observe signs and warnings, and keep off closed trails.
Know how to use the lifts safely.


As I said, I know the code. Your "downhill object has right of way" is an interpretation. You'll find DMC holding forth on this topic in various threads here over the last few years since I joined up.

We are splitting some hairs on this, but should we assume that the hikers you are looking to unleash on Cannon know this code also? Particularly the 3rd, 4th and 6th sentences.

Most casual skiers don't even know this stuff.

 

[Cannonball]

Always stay in control.
People ahead of you have the right of way.
Stop in a safe place for you and others.
Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.
Use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
Observe signs and warnings, and keep off closed trails.
Know how to use the lifts safely.


As I said, I know the code. Your "downhill object has right of way" is an interpretation. You'll find DMC holding forth on this topic in various threads here over the last few years since I joined up.

We are splitting some hairs on this, but should we assume that the hikers you are looking to unleash on Cannon know this code also? Particularly the 3rd, 4th and 6th sentences.

Most casual skiers don't even know this stuff.

+1
But actually I'd say it's the 2nd sentence that's most relevant here. "People ahead of you have the right of way." If you are hiking up, the 'people ahead of you' would be he skiers coming down hill. That creates a conflict. Threecy says its the faster skiers that have the responsibility. But they don't expect to see hikers. Hikers may be slower, but they should expect to see skiers coming down. So the hikers would very much have responsibility here. Which is why there are legitimate restrictions on allowing people to hike up ski trails when they are in operation.

 

[threecy]

+1
Which is why there are legitimate restrictions on allowing people to hike up ski trails when they are in operation.

Hikers have been using the Polecat at Wildcat, year round, for as long as the trail has been around. How many incidents have you heard of? How many incidents have their been between skiers and hikers during the other 2/3ds of the year that Wildcat is closed for skiing?