Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[thetrailboss]

Many NH residents drive south to Cannon.

Yeah, got to disagree with this point as well. There is not much north of Cannon in NH. True that folks from Littleton, Bethlehem, and even my part of the NEK come down to Cannon, but most of the traffic is from the south.

 

[AdironRider]

I think Black is still practicing trolling.

 

[Northernflight]

Id put the number of Cannon skiers going through the hookset tolls somewhere over 50%, I don't even want to know how much Ive spent on them in my life. A large base of the NH population, Nashua, Manchester, Salem, Seacoast, Keene, would most likely be going through them as well as all the Boston traffic. Ive meet a lot of Massachusetts people who ski at Cannon, but that is just based on experience after all.

I was just giving one of many, many examples where big investments of public money are made towards projects and services that are used by only a small percentage of NH residents.

I agree. Wouldn't we agree that the point of governments is to provide what the market will not? I'm all for losses on public goods, how else would you look at education expenses based souly on cost to the state?. It seems that overall the park system wasn't loosing a drastic amount.

 

[MadPadraic]

In other words, there is no financial benefit for the vast majority of the current owners of Cannon Mountain who have to continue to sink millions in tax dollars into the place.

Well, there is that whole being 12% cheaper than similar mountains aspect. If 12% is trivial, how would feel about your income taxes going up by 12%?

Also, while I do live in the socialist utopia of Mass :smash:, I don't know of a single person who is employed on weekdays but unable to take a day off midweek. Hence, I can only assume that the free market utopia of NH has employers offering their employees vacation time and personal days due to the simple market pressure of having MA employers so close.

 

[MadPadraic]

Even if the 130,000 skier visits were 100% state residents who only skied one day a year, that would mean 99% of the state doesn't ski there.

When did NH's population grow more than 10 fold?

 

[Northernflight]

Even if the 130,000 skier visits were 100% state residents who only skied one day a year, that would mean 99% of the state doesn't ski there

130,000 * 100 = 13,000,000 residents
According to http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0012.pdf NH state residence is 1,325,000

I'm assuming you were just using that to exaggerate your point. No not every NH resident skis there. No not every NH skier skis there. But enough do to care about the area and want to see it continue to operate at the highest possible offering to the skier and not the business which seems to be where Cannon is different from other resorts. Of course they want to make money but they seem to care about their customers and provide a product that people who oppose a lease seem to like. The problem with this argument is one cant put it soley as a state run business, being situated and integrated into Franconia Notch state park. This is why people can say it is faulty to base an argument on leasing Cannon because it is not making money because that would be the same as saying Ahern State Park should be leased off. Sure not a lot of people use it but it is a beautiful place that provides access to Lake Winnisquam and does not make a dime. On the other hand it is a ski area so saying it soly provides a product people cant get elsewhere isn't really true either but Cannon is Cannon because it is all that and its integration with the state has defined it and shaped it. Cannon is a historical resort as far as skiing goes and it and I feel like Franconia Notch would not be the same if it were leased, and the change would not be for the better. My main point of concern is Francoina Notch State Park because this situation is different then Sunapee. Okemo didn't get key State park attractions like it seems the Cannon Leese would. Also Cannon is much more built up than Sunapee seems to have been when it was leased out.

 

[deadheadskier]

His numbers make sense and check out. You've got 1.3M residents in NH. 130K skier visits a year at Cannon. If 10% of those visits are by NH residents and they only ski 1 day per year, that would equal 13K residents, or 1% of the population.

His 13K number for NH resident usage is probably pretty accurate. You can get a close approximation of the number if you knew roughly what the skier day visit split was between NH residents and non Residents and factor in the average skier days per participant. The average skier skis 11 days a season. Many folks ski multiple areas in a season, so say 4 of those 11 days are spent at Cannon.

http://www.skiareacitizens.com/Demographics_Trends_2008.pdf

If the skier visit split was 50/50, that means there are 65K skier visits a year from 16.25K NH residents.

So, ultimately what this is about is potentially (definitely) screwing 16.25K NH residents out of some very good deals and potentially ruining the overall 'raw' experience those 16.25K state residents and an additional 16.25K non state residents love about skiing at Cannon.

All for 500K guaranteed revenue a year with zero liabilities for the State.

You look at those numbers and it's probably pretty likely the lease will happen. It's what governments do when they need to save money. Rather than addressing far greater spending issues or exploring ways to raise revenue other than selling out to private business, governments make numerous minimally impactful cuts in programs that have low overall usage / small voices because they know they can slam through the bills with minimal resistance.

I bet threecy has already popped the cork on a champagne bottle. The writing is on the wall for what the outcome will be. And it sucks for Cannon skiers.

 

[threecy]

Let's not forget, Cannon skiers have to go through tolls as well.

Go ahead and put the toll argument out there. It's valid.

Still waiting to see data to prove your point. How much money is New Hampshire making off Cannon skiers going through tolls?

I bet threecy has already popped the cork on a champagne bottle.

I don't drink, and the lease is far from a sure thing. It has significant support in Concord, however it's definitely not a done deal.

 

[Cannonball]

How much money is New Hampshire making off Cannon skiers going through tolls?

Hard to say. But here's one way to look at it. If a 65 year from southern NH skied at Cannon Mon-Friday it would cost him more in tolls than in lift tickets.

 

[riverc0il]

Still waiting to see data to prove your point. How much money is New Hampshire making off Cannon skiers going through tolls?

I can't provide data on numbers at the tolls but I can provide data on license plates at Cannon. Usually at least half of the plates in the parking lot are MA plates. They would have all come through and gone back down through the tolls. Given the population centers of NH, it would seem logical to reason that perhaps as much (if not more) than half of NH Cannon skiers also come through the tolls each was as well.

Are we really discussing how tolls at this point??? :blink:

 

[deadheadskier]

Still waiting to see data to prove your point. How much money is New Hampshire making off Cannon skiers going through tolls?.

Why don't you go back and reread the context of my statement.

Black Phantom made a true statement; "The State makes money off of tolls from people visiting Hampton Beach." I simply made another true statement; "The State also makes money off of tolls for people visiting Cannon."

Even if I could provide you a dollar figure, it wouldn't matter. If the State leased out the parking and Hampton Beach management to a private operator, they'd make the same money off of tolls. Likewise, if Cannon were leased, the state would make the same money they currently do off of Tolls.

I don't drink, and the lease is far from a sure thing. It has significant support in Concord, however it's definitely not a done deal.

fine Sparkling Cider if that's your preference.

 

[Northernflight]

His numbers make sense and check out. You've got 1.3M residents in NH. 130K skier visits a year at Cannon. If 10% of those visits are by NH residents and they only ski 1 day per year, that would equal 13K residents, or 1% of the population.

His 13K number for NH resident usage is probably pretty accurate. You can get a close approximation of the number if you knew roughly what the skier day visit split was between NH residents and non Residents and factor in the average skier days per participant. The average skier skis 11 days a season. Many folks ski multiple areas in a season, so say 4 of those 11 days are spent at Cannon.

Ok I miss read that. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

I don't drink, and the lease is far from a sure thing. It has significant support in Concord, however it's definitely not a done deal.

I knew there was a reason why I couldn't fully back your arguments. Never trust a person who doesn't drink.....:lol:

 

[Geoff]

Id be willing to wager at least 50% go through. Where else would they come from? VT? Doubtful. Anyone who goes up 16 is most likely skiing the Mt. Washington area resorts.

I'd wager it's much closer to 100% than 50% of Cannon skiers going through the Hooksett tolls. Most of the population of New Hampshire lives in the bottom 20 miles of the state. There's really no way of avoiding I-93 for most people and it's a bother to drive around the toll on Route 3A. When I lived in Portsmouth, I'd take 101 to I-93 rather than drive Route 4 to Concord. Much faster drive.

The EZpass lanes at the Hampton tolls are now high speed. I've read that's coming in the next two years at Hooksett. Now all I need is to be able to drive through the NHSLS to pick up my booze order and I-93 between Manchester and Concord is perfect.

 

[AdironRider]

I'd wager it's much closer to 100% than 50% of Cannon skiers going through the Hooksett tolls. Most of the population of New Hampshire lives in the bottom 20 miles of the state. There's really no way of avoiding I-93 for most people and it's a bother to drive around the toll on Route 3A. When I lived in Portsmouth, I'd take 101 to I-93 rather than drive Route 4 to Concord. Much faster drive.

The EZpass lanes at the Hampton tolls are now high speed. I've read that's coming in the next two years at Hooksett. Now all I need is to be able to drive through the NHSLS to pick up my booze order and I-93 between Manchester and Concord is perfect.

I actually agree with you but was breaking character a bit and hedging my bets.

To suggest that a majority of Cannon skiers arent paying the Hookset toll is pretty laughable.

 

[SIKSKIER]

From Treecy's website:

Access Road Damage on Mittersill
An access road was constructed to the top of the Mittersill chairlift to facilitate staging for the installation. While the lift manufacturer appears to have taken caution to avoid erosion during the installation (much of the chairlift line was hayed and is now growing grass), it appears the work road was inadequately constructed and carelessly used bynon-lift-manufacturer employees, including driving through and breeching waterbars. Significant gravel erosion has taken place in 2011.

I found this interesting.Statements made here claim the lift installer took procautions but of course whoever constructed the the work road was careless.The implication being the State was careless and not the lift manufacturer employess.

Are you saying the state had nothing to do with seeding the liftline and that was done by the lift manufacturer?How do you know this?And you know that the lift manufacturer didn't do any damage to the access road,only the state?Is his a "throw anything at the wall and see what sticks" statement or do you have facts to back this up?

 

[Puck it]

From Treecy's website:

Access Road Damage on Mittersill
An access road was constructed to the top of the Mittersill chairlift to facilitate staging for the installation. While the lift manufacturer appears to have taken caution to avoid erosion during the installation (much of the chairlift line was hayed and is now growing grass), it appears the work road was inadequately constructed and carelessly used bynon-lift-manufacturer employees, including driving through and breeching waterbars. Significant gravel erosion has taken place in 2011.

I found this interesting.Statements made here claim the lift installer took procautions but of course whoever constructed the the work road was careless.The implication being the State was careless and not the lift manufacturer employess.

Are you saying the state had nothing to do with seeding the liftline and that was done by the lift manufacturer?How do you know this?And you know that the lift manufacturer didn't do any damage to the access road,only the state?Is his a "throw anything at the wall and see what sticks" statement or do you have facts to back this up?

+1. I have been trying to get this put of him. But was to lazy to type a long response. Thanks.

I also thought CTEC was responsible for reinstall of old and new lift. So why would Cannon employees need heavy equipment up there?

 

[riverc0il]

I'll echo the last two comments: I would like to know how threecy knows beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Cannon Mountain that caused the pictured tracks and not the lift install company. Further, I am still awaiting clarification of this "access road". Having skied Mittersill this past winter, there were no new trail cuts aside from the liftline being rehacked out of the regrowth. The only trails that make sense for the access road include the cross over at mid-mountain to Skyline. Is Skyline not that access road? Spill it.

 

[AdironRider]

 

[MadPadraic]

His numbers make sense and check out. You've got 1.3M residents in NH. 130K skier visits a year at Cannon. If 10% of those visits are by NH residents and they only ski 1 day per year, that would equal 13K residents, or 1% of the population.

His 13K number for NH resident usage is probably pretty accurate. You can get a close approximation of the number if you knew roughly what the skier day visit split was between NH residents and non Residents and factor in the average skier days per participant. The average skier skis 11 days a season. Many folks ski multiple areas in a season, so say 4 of those 11 days are spent at Cannon.

He said 100% though.

Also, from a purely financial aspect, I think that the tolls argument strengthens his case: a new operator would undoubtedly advertise more and try to bring in more skier visits. From "Cannon is a treasure don't destroy this wonderful public good" it is less so. Boo crowds. hurray beer.