Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[riverc0il]

Every major resort I've ever been to has plenty of intermediate terrain, but only a handful emphasize it.

Say what? Every resort brags about their intermediate terrain. Even MRG loves to pump up their great groomers and terrain for everyone!

 

[MadPadraic]

I can't speak for the western resorts, but MRG markets itself just as much as a family mountain as an experts mountain. As a shareholder, I would argue our success is more due to families than die hards. While MRG has been successful as a coop, I MRG isn't exactly rolling in it and has to make careful choices on how to reinvest into its infrastructure. A mountain without the historic cache of MRG would not be able to survive, it is a unique area. As for Jay, having been a pass holder there, the number of families and joeys at Jay FAR outnumbers the hardcore and powder hounds. Jay isn't successful because of the powder hounds even though that is where it gets its reputation. Take away the groomer only crowd and Jay would fail. So would Sugarbush.

How much more direct than "Ski it if you can" can you get than marketing yourself as a challenging mountain? If the success is more due to families than die hards, then it just furthers my point.

Actually, I'm arguing the contrary point.

The most successful resorts are stuffed full of intermediate terrain and market the hell out of it. Okemo is the poster child in the east. Vail is really intermediate. Steamboat is really intermediate. Snowmass is really intermediate. You make your money from the people paying retail prices at high season. If it wasn't for them, there would be very few ski areas. Ski areas would go broke if all they had was advanced skiers on season passes who ski 60 days per year.

Other than Mad River's "Ski It If You Can", nobody in the east markets themselves as the super-challenging ball crusher ski area of the east. The biggest places like Sunday River and Killington market having something for everybody but nobody is going to do anything to chase away that $1,000/day family of 4 business or the car load of intermediate couples driving up from the flatlands business. It's everybody's bread and butter.

I know that you are arguing the contrary, but I think there is a subtle difference: what a mountain has vs how it sells itself. Okemo is the poster child in the East for being flat and overgroomed, but it is most certainly not the the poster child of east coast skiing. That would be Killington or Stowe. Killington's most famous trails are Devil's Fiddle and Outer Limits. Stowe is known for it's front four. You can argue that the front four aren't what they were (I wouldn't know, I've never been), but that doesn't detract from my point.

Jay sells its woods and Sugarloaf its snowfields.

Vail's primary attraction is the back bowls, which it marks mostly black and double black. Crystal and Baker are famous for their back country. In fairness, I think of Steamboat as marketing their "special" snow first and foremost.

 

[Cannonball]

How much more direct than "Ski it if you can" can you get than marketing yourself as a challenging mountain? If the success is more due to families than die hards, then it just furthers my point.



I know that you are arguing the contrary, but I think there is a subtle difference: what a mountain has vs how it sells itself. Okemo is the poster child in the East for being flat and overgroomed, but it is most certainly not the the poster child of east coast skiing. That would be Killington or Stowe. Killington's most famous trails are Devil's Fiddle and Outer Limits. Stowe is known for it's front four. You can argue that the front four aren't what they were (I wouldn't know, I've never been), but that doesn't detract from my point.

Jay sells its woods and Sugarloaf its snowfields.

Vail's primary attraction is the back bowls, which it marks mostly black and double black. Crystal and Baker are famous for their back country. In fairness, I think of Steamboat as marketing their "special" snow first and foremost.

I'm not sure how we got from Cannon Leasing to Tolls & Back Bowls. But for the sake of props to a good post I give this one 2 thumbs up. You hit the nail on the head about the perception of unique/challenging terrain as being the marketing focus for many mountains even if it's not what the typical skier actually utilizes. It's a 'vibe' that defines many mountains - whether it's Mary Jane's bumps, or Steamboat's birch glades, or MRG's purist approach. That's why the "No Pain No Jane" and "Ski it if You Can" bumper stickers abound.

And I guess that brings us back to the point. Cannon's vibe is low-key, state-run, challenging terrain, no-frills, back-to-basics, hardcore, local scene, brutal weather, potentially amazing conditions, frequently horrid conditions, good deals, etc. Not everyone skis Tramline. Not everyone knows the hidden tree lines. Not everyone gets there for Tuesday 2fers on a powder day. Not everyone makes it to the 8:15 tram. Not everyone prefers hiking to Mitty since it is still better than taking the lift. Not everyone recognizes the tai chi lift bump on the cannonball. But EVERYONE who skis Cannon likes to know that those things are there and that they were skiing at a place where that is possible and they are therefore a part of it.

As Riverc0il has pointed out in the past, not much will change under a lease. The terrain can't change. The snowmaking and services can only improve. But that 'vibe' WILL change. It will loose the grass-roots appeal (real or perceived) that exists now. Maybe it can thrive under a new model....who knows. But I do know it won't be the same.

 

[jack97]

And I guess that brings us back to the point. Cannon's vibe is low-key, state-run, challenging terrain, no-frills, back-to-basics, hardcore, local scene, brutal weather, potentially amazing conditions, frequently horrid conditions, good deals, etc. Not everyone skis Tramline. Not everyone knows the hidden tree lines. Not everyone gets there for Tuesday 2fers on a powder day. Not everyone makes it to the 8:15 tram. Not everyone prefers hiking to Mitty since it is still better than taking the lift. Not everyone recognizes the tai chi lift bump on the cannonball. But EVERYONE who skis Cannon likes to know that those things are there and that they were skiing at a place where that is possible and they are therefore a part of it.

As Riverc0il has pointed out in the past, not much will change under a lease. The terrain can't change. The snowmaking and services can only improve. But that 'vibe' WILL change. It will loose the grass-roots appeal (real or perceived) that exists now. Maybe it can thrive under a new model....who knows. But I do know it won't be the same.

After spending my family ski time at various "intermediate resorts", a couple of things a private will consider to make the ski count high and to minimize their liability.

1. During early season and snow droughts, focus the snowmaking on the trails that has the highest traffic. Most likely the widest and lowest pitch trails. What's ever left of the narrow and steep stuff (on the map) would get lowest priority. Especially a private that stays disciplined to their budget, why throw money at trail that doesn't bring in the high visits.

2. Plenty of rope...... those hidden lines, say goodbye to them. The more visits you get, the more Joeys will try to venture to those hidden treasures. If for some reason one gets hurt, then comes the lawsuits. Doesn't have to be a joey, say pre-teen(s) venturing on the own for first time can cause this mess. I bet the ambulance chasers are chomping at the bit for this; no rope ==> higher settlement.

 

[Puck it]

After spending my family ski time at various "intermediate resorts", a couple of things a private will consider to make the ski count high and to minimize their liability.

1. During early season and snow droughts, focus the snowmaking on the trails that has the highest traffic. Most likely the widest and lowest pitch trails. What's ever left of the narrow and steep stuff (on the map) would get lowest priority. Especially a private that stays disciplined to their budget, why throw money at trail that doesn't bring in the high visits.

2. Plenty of rope...... those hidden lines, say goodbye to them. The more visits you get, the more Joeys will try to venture to those hidden treasures. If for some reason one gets hurt, then comes the lawsuits. Doesn't have to be a joey, say pre-teen(s) venturing on the own for first time can cause this mess. I bet the ambulance chasers are chomping at the bit for this; no rope ==> higher settlement.

Let's hope not on number 2. That is what brings me to Cannon.

 

[witch hobble]

Not everyone recognizes the tai chi lift bump on the cannonball. QUOTE]

I'm hip to the tai chi lift bump. That is a great name for it. Zen and the art of lift operation.

 

[Puck it]

Not everyone recognizes the tai chi lift bump on the cannonball.

I am still trying to figure it out. I am sure I know what it is but not by that name though.

Are talking about how the liftie loads at the bottom?

 

[bobbutts]

After spending my family ski time at various "intermediate resorts", a couple of things a private will consider to make the ski count high and to minimize their liability.

1. During early season and snow droughts, focus the snowmaking on the trails that has the highest traffic. Most likely the widest and lowest pitch trails. What's ever left of the narrow and steep stuff (on the map) would get lowest priority. Especially a private that stays disciplined to their budget, why throw money at trail that doesn't bring in the high visits.

2. Plenty of rope...... those hidden lines, say goodbye to them. The more visits you get, the more Joeys will try to venture to those hidden treasures. If for some reason one gets hurt, then comes the lawsuits. Doesn't have to be a joey, say pre-teen(s) venturing on the own for first time can cause this mess. I bet the ambulance chasers are chomping at the bit for this; no rope ==> higher settlement.

#2 is a straw man argument.. many private areas including have boundary to boundary policies. I saw some unnecessary rope at Cannon this season too. It seems far to presumptive to try and guess if it would change or if it would become more or less liberal under a different operator.

 

[witch hobble]

I am still trying to figure it out. I am sure I know what it is but not by that name though.

Are talking about how the liftie loads at the bottom?

That is what I was talking about. Dude gets into it, absorbs the chair with the whole body. Some sort of martial art. I always appreciate a good bump from a liftie who takes some pride in their job. Doesn't always happen like that over on Zoomer.

 

[witch hobble]

#2 is a straw man argument.. many private areas including have boundary to boundary policies. I saw some unnecessary rope at Cannon this season too. It seems far to presumptive to try and guess if it would change or if it would become more or less liberal under a different operator.

True.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point anyway.

 

[Cannonball]

That is what I was talking about. Dude gets into it, absorbs the chair with the whole body. Some sort of martial art. I always appreciate a good bump from a liftie who takes some pride in their job. Doesn't always happen like that over on Zoomer.

You got it man. Glad to see true appreciation for art.

 

[Puck it]

You got it man. Glad to see true appreciation for art.

Thought so. The lifties at Sunapee do a good job on the Sun bowl quad too.

 

[bobbutts]

Thought so. The lifties at Sunapee do a good job on the Sun bowl quad too.

I've had nothing but good experiences with all the employees I've dealt with at Sunapee. Donno if it applies to the Cannon argument really, but it would be very hard to argue that leasing causes bad customer service if you use Sunapee as an example.

 

[thetrailboss]

I've had nothing but good experiences with all the employees I've dealt with at Sunapee. Donno if it applies to the Cannon argument really, but it would be very hard to argue that leasing causes bad customer service if you use Sunapee as an example.

Sunapee, in my experience, did have great service. I think that is in part because they are run by the Muellers and are in a very competitive region. Plus they are the feeder to Okemo and the Mueller's other resorts.

 

[witch hobble]

A liftie who is in his own zone, doing his own thing and bumping chairs proper is way preferable to some goob, who has been trained in "service" and how to smile, kissing your ass as the chair wallops your boot top.

Lifties are factory workers, functionaries, and we paying customers are the widgets or whatever. Some unit of measurement for the bureaucracy to bore us with their stats. How is that for a dystopic state run paranoid delusion?

Full disclosure: I was a lift operator for three weeks in 1993. I couldn't handle it.

 

[Puck it]

Love that bump on the Tram. Especially the 8:15 one.

 

[MadPadraic]

Lifties are factory workers, functionaries, and we paying customers are the widgets or whatever. Some unit of measurement for the bureaucracy to bore us with their stats. How is that for a dystopic state run paranoid delusion?

Horrible, that's how it is. Most lifties are employed by private enterprise, so trashing on the job and calling it "dystopic state run" is particularly inappropriate in a thread meant to discuss privatizing a state run mountain. Oh, by the way, earlier posts pointed out that the lifties at the state run mountain are awesome.

Sorry to trash on you, because you've had great posts otherwise, and I know the point of your post was to highlight the mundaneness of the job, but be careful of language. (I know I've set myself up here for a rip..)

 

[witch hobble]

Horrible, that's how it is. Most lifties are employed by private enterprise, so trashing on the job and calling it "dystopic state run" is particularly inappropriate in a thread meant to discuss privatizing a state run mountain. Oh, by the way, earlier posts pointed out that the lifties at the state run mountain are awesome.

Sorry to trash on you, because you've had great posts otherwise, and I know the point of your post was to highlight the mundaneness of the job, but be careful of language. (I know I've set myself up here for a rip..)

No rip. We are all entitled to our perceptions.

Most factory workers making widgets are private sector too. Bumpin' ain't easy.

After 90 pages we have to watch our language? Talk about dystopian quagmires!

 

[MadPadraic]

No rip. We are all entitled to our perceptions.

Most factory workers making widgets are private sector too. Bumpin' ain't easy.

After 90 pages we have to watch our language? Talk about dystopian quagmires!

Time to read Rivet Head.

 

[jack97]

#2 is a straw man argument.. many private areas including have boundary to boundary policies. I saw some unnecessary rope at Cannon this season too. It seems far to presumptive to try and guess if it would change or if it would become more or less liberal under a different operator.

i agree, but I would add that anyplace that has more joeys would have more rope.

and yes..... the genie is out of the bottle, exactly the time they did the land swap deal to get Mittersill.