Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[jack97]

Thought so. The lifties at Sunapee do a good job on the Sun bowl quad too.

they always have the coolest people working that lift.

 

[MadPadraic]

I'm not sure how we got from Cannon Leasing to Tolls & Back Bowls. But for the sake of props to a good post I give this one 2 thumbs up. You hit the nail on the head about the perception of unique/challenging terrain as being the marketing focus for many mountains even if it's not what the typical skier actually utilizes. It's a 'vibe' that defines many mountains - whether it's Mary Jane's bumps, or Steamboat's birch glades, or MRG's purist approach. That's why the "No Pain No Jane" and "Ski it if You Can" bumper stickers abound.

And I guess that brings us back to the point. Cannon's vibe is low-key, state-run, challenging terrain, no-frills, back-to-basics, hardcore, local scene, brutal weather, potentially amazing conditions, frequently horrid conditions, good deals, etc. Not everyone skis Tramline. Not everyone knows the hidden tree lines. Not everyone gets there for Tuesday 2fers on a powder day. Not everyone makes it to the 8:15 tram. Not everyone prefers hiking to Mitty since it is still better than taking the lift. Not everyone recognizes the tai chi lift bump on the cannonball. But EVERYONE who skis Cannon likes to know that those things are there and that they were skiing at a place where that is possible and they are therefore a part of it.

As Riverc0il has pointed out in the past, not much will change under a lease. The terrain can't change. The snowmaking and services can only improve. But that 'vibe' WILL change. It will loose the grass-roots appeal (real or perceived) that exists now. Maybe it can thrive under a new model....who knows. But I do know it won't be the same.

Thanks for the props and bringing it back to Cannon. Here's a general question. Many of us on this forum love Cannon. How much of that is the vibe and how much is the terrain? Can the two be separated? For me at least, it comes from a few very fun trails and less so from the facilities (though I think this is true of each and every ski area, facilities are either acceptable or not...very few bonus points). Sure, I tend to meet nice people on the mountain, but I don't think that is nearly as important as the sheer fun factor on any given run.

 

[riverc0il]

I think the vibe and terrain could very easily be separated. I was first attracted to Cannon for its vibe long before I could ski all of its terrain.

Look at how the vibe changed at Killington under three different ownerships. The could easily happen at Cannon. The terrain... hard to change that. They can make more snow, groom more, and have less bumps. But more snow making is good and they already don't leave much for bumps (thank goodness for lots of woods). But the vibe is a critical thing that management can have a massive effect on.

 

[witch hobble]

Cool people who come, seeking the terrain hang around and help create "the vibe".

Seperate question: Were the bidders for Cannon in the late '90s made public? Can anyone point me to a list of who bid and how much?

 

[MadPadraic]

I agree.....in addition, the glades at Sunapee are way harder than Crotched. Going to repeat... only trail that has any pitch is the main trail under the quad lift.

What about the hike to terrain at Crotched?

 

[Puck it]

This has been quiet. Guess he is too busy over on Snowjournal not answering questions.

 

[Northernflight]

NHBR article http://www.nhbr.com/politicsflotsam/921862-288/flotsam--jetsam.html

No way to treat a commissioner

In a legislative session loaded with backroom deals and super-secret projects, add the push to lease the state-run Cannon Mountain ski area to the list.

Turns out the Senate Finance Committee - or at least most of its members - has a thing for leasing Cannon, so much so that it's done as little as possible to find out other views on the matter, or apparently even doing the math to see if a lease deal would pay off for the state.

The committee late last month inserted into House Bill 2 - the budget trailer bill, for those keeping score at home - a measure that would not only explore whether it's a good idea to lease Cannon, but to get the deal done ASAP. The measure zeroes out Cannon's state budget for the 2013 fiscal year, which means the state would have to find a buyer and get the ink dried on the lease by June 30, 2012.

The senators must figure there's a gold mine in leasing Cannon. Well, not so much, since the mountain has been actually brought into the 21st century over the last several years, with expansion into the former Mittersill ski area, serious capital improvements like snowmaking and grooming equipment, and a real-life marketing plan that actually works. The result: four consecutive years of sizable profits, most recently to the tune of a million bucks.

Which brings us to the rush job at Senate Finance, which included gutting a House bill that had nothing to do with leasing Cannon, putting in the leasing language and then tacking it on to the trailer bill. Why the hurry?

There's not really a clear answer, actually. But even more interesting is the way the leasing plan appeared almost out of thin air.

To say the committee made a minimal effort to get the state Department of Resources and Economic Development - which oversees Cannon - involved would be an exaggeration. Actually, it looks like it simply avoided getting any feedback from DRED.

Most specifically, it avoided getting feedback from George Bald, DRED's commissioner.

A hearing was scheduled on the amendment - an amendment that wasn't available to be read until the hearing itself. Bald was given a couple of days' notice about the hearing, but he had a conflict - he had a long-planned meeting with representatives of a Quebec company that he was trying to get to open operations in New Hampshire. So when he told the committee he couldn't make it, they told him not to worry: He'd be invited back to give his take.

But - shockingly - he was never invited back, even after several phone calls by Bald requesting an invitation. (The calls, by the way, were never returned.)

So the vote was held, without the DRED commissioner's thoughts on leasing Cannon - a mountain that his agency has worked hard to turn around from its dark days not too long ago.

"I can understand if people have a difference of opinion about the situation, but at least have a discussion about it," said the usually unruffled Bald, who admitted he was "pissed off" about the behind-the-back deal. "I don't think it's a fair situation."

What's most disturbing to him is that backers of leasing Cannon "are just not thinking this stuff through at all."

First, according to the commissioner, the money brought in by Cannon is dedicated to funding the parks system, not the general fund - which raises questions about the sudden urgency to push for leasing.

Second, it's safe to assume that at least some of the 30 or so full-time jobs and 250 to 300 part-time jobs at Cannon will be in jeopardy - not exactly a heartening prospect in the North Country.

Third, does anyone actually know if a reputable bidder can be found by June 30, 2012?

Fourth, one of the major arguments over the leasing of the state-owned Mt. Sunapee ski area was that money earned through that deal would be used to ensure that Cannon remained in public hands.

Fifth, Mt. Sunapee was not doing well at the time it was finally leased. The same can't be said for Cannon.

Sixth, because Cannon is located inside Franconia Notch State Park, leasing will involve a much more complicated transudation than at Mt. Sunapee, which sits by itself. (See the third concern.)

Regardless of the arguments for or against, though, what really gets Bald's goat is the quasi-secret dealings surrounding the whole affair.

"It just appears to me that when you intentionally do things to get less attention to do something, it's not because you have the strongest argument in the world," said Bald.

Looks like the legislators proposing the lease are only looking at the monetary side of things and haven't been bothered too see the whole picture here; only the cost on paper to balance the budget.

Anyone come across the answer to Witch Hobbles question? Ive been looking but havent been able to come up with anything yet.

 

[jack97]

What about the hike to terrain at Crotched?

I have heard about that section but never tried it...... maybe this season if they keep a bump field going.

 

[jack97]

NHBR article http://www.nhbr.com/politicsflotsam/921862-288/flotsam--jetsam.html



Looks like the legislators proposing the lease are only looking at the monetary side of things and haven't been bothered too see the whole picture here; only the cost on paper to balance the budget.

"warning Will Robinson warning".........imo, any career politician who gets $100/year will be heavily influence by constituents or groups with deep pockets. They need the money to keep there own political campaigns and lifestyles going.

The true source or motivation of the lease will be seen by following the money trail.... or who will reap the most money from this plan.

 

[MadPadraic]

Loon's tree island cutting just made the lease more valuable.

 

[riverc0il]

"warning Will Robinson warning".........imo, any career politician who gets $100/year will be heavily influence by constituents or groups with deep pockets. They need the money to keep there own political campaigns and lifestyles going.

The true source or motivation of the lease will be seen by following the money trail.... or who will reap the most money from this plan.

I find it hard to believe any NH Rep would be interested in money for votes. Usually in a stage this small, money gets given to campaigns based on the politician's stance on issues, not issues changed for money. My concern with state Reps only being paid $200/year is that it likely naturally selects only those that can afford to be a state Rep rather than that they will trade votes for campaign contributions. From what I have seen locally, not a lot of money is being invested in NH Rep campaigns. I suspect being a state rep in NH is something (generally speaking) only the well to do are going to be able to afford.

Loon's tree island cutting just made the lease more valuable.

How so? I would say it points towards the dangers of leasing. What if Cannon were leased to Boyne? Would the same decision makes cut the tree islands of Mittersill (there are a lot)? Would all of the Mittersill trails be cut back to their original width (as they can be per the land swap agreement)? Would decisions made based on the "majority" of skiers be applied to all trails universally so the area could have more trails available to cater to the average skier?

 

[jack97]

I find it hard to believe any NH Rep would be interested in money for votes. Usually in a stage this small, money gets given to campaigns based on the politician's stance on issues, not issues changed for money.

Given how much money is needed to keep the politically machinary going to keep state reps and senators in office, you need to take care the to poeple or groups that put you in and keep you in. And yes.... the amount of money is not chump change. Thats why I'm interested in the money trail which sparks this issue that comes up every 4-5 years.

 

[AdironRider]

Are you even from NH?

New Hampshires system is one of the better ones in the country, and at least from the area I grew up in, the reps elected couldnt give a shit about the money. They just want to do it.

Frankly, you sound like a guy whos just pissed off a government and is going to stick to his argument regardless, go hang with Threecy or something.

End politics discussion.

 

[Nick]

Hopefully we will hear from Cannon for the AZ challenge Emails went out today.

 

[jack97]

Are you even from NH?

New Hampshires system is one of the better ones in the country, and at least from the area I grew up in, the reps elected couldnt give a shit about the money. They just want to do it.

Frankly, you sound like a guy whos just pissed off a government and is going to stick to his argument regardless, go hang with Threecy or something.

End politics discussion.

Here's the facts as I read it; NH state senate finance committee trys a backdoor trick to privatized a ski area. Because of this, JD post an opinion statement on their web site and Bald is essentially saying wtf. Due to a stalemate on the budget, it becomes a proposed topic for open debate for the upcoming legislation, where in my opinion where it should have been in the first place.

BTW, I'm from MA where state level corruption has evolved to an art form. Those apathetic to government corruption will be consumed by it and basically deserve what they get.

If that's too politcal then I'm out.

 

[deadheadskier]

This topic can't be discussed without at least some political content. I'm fine with that given that it's related to the ski business.

NH politicians are certainly interwined in the ski business. Chris Sununu is on the Executive Council for the State. He's also the owner and CEO of Waterville Valley.

What an interesting turn of events it would be if the Sununu family took on the lease of Cannon. A Cannon/Waterville partnership would certainly offer a very compelling season pass offering.

 

[Puck it]

This topic can't be discussed without at least some political content. I'm fine with that given that it's related to the ski business.

NH politicians are certainly interwined in the ski business. Chris Sununu is on the Executive Council for the State. He's also the owner and CEO of Waterville Valley.

What an interesting turn of events it would be if the Sununu family took on the lease of Cannon. A Cannon/Waterville partnership would certainly offer a very compelling season pass offering.

And would be about a $1K for no black outs. That would suck the big one.

 

[Cannonball]

And would be about a $1K for no black outs. That would suck the big one.

A Cannon/WV pass at $1K would great!.....for Burke's business

 

[Puck it]

A Cannon/WV pass at $1K would great!.....for Burke's business

Come to think of it, I got 2 WV passes when I bought my season pass this year.

Coincidnence or what?

 

[deadheadskier]

what are the prices for the Boyne no blackout or the Peaks Granite no black out passes?

I would imagine at least to start, a Cannon/Waterville pass would be priced below those two passes to try and gain market share. According to the most recent data I've seen, Waterville and Cannon only do about 300K skier visits combined.

For the record, I'm not in favor of Waterville partnering with Cannon.