Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[thetrailboss]

what are the prices for the Boyne no blackout or the Peaks Granite no black out passes?

I would imagine at least to start, a Cannon/Waterville pass would be priced below those two passes to try and gain market share. According to the most recent data I've seen, Waterville and Cannon only do about 300K skier visits combined.

For the record, I'm not in favor of Waterville partnering with Cannon.

While it makes some sense that Sununu might like Cannon, they have their hands full with WV right now.

Since Cannon has little real estate development potential, if any, and is only a ski area operation, I would see it as a prime target for...wait for it...POWDR.

Killington and Cannon threads unite. Dance puppets, dance! :lol:

 

[jimmywilson69]

at a minimum, it would stream line the complaining...

 

[deadheadskier]

:lol:

Jimmy

you and I need to tip back a few beers. :lol:

 

[deadheadskier]

While it makes some sense that Sununu might like Cannon, they have their hands full with WV right now.

Since Cannon has little real estate development potential, if any, and is only a ski area operation, I would see it as a prime target for...wait for it...POWDR.

Killington and Cannon threads unite. Dance puppets, dance! :lol:

I look at it more from a competition issue for the Sununus. Threecy has made numerous arguments that subsidized State Run Cannon puts private ski areas out of business. As both a ski area owner and a man with political power, I could see Chris wanting to prevent Cannon from taking away skier visits from Cannon and using his political sway to make that happen.

I do think Waterville would benefit greatly from having a dual ticket with Cannon. Loon has SR/SL to attract season pass holders. Attitash and Wildcat are partnerned up. As an individual area, Waterville will have a very difficult time competing with those ownership groups. Cannon would be a huge benefit for them. It might actually help drive real estate sales at Waterville.

 

[riverc0il]

This topic can't be discussed without at least some political content. I'm fine with that given that it's related to the ski business.

NH politicians are certainly interwined in the ski business. Chris Sununu is on the Executive Council for the State. He's also the owner and CEO of Waterville Valley.

What an interesting turn of events it would be if the Sununu family took on the lease of Cannon. A Cannon/Waterville partnership would certainly offer a very compelling season pass offering.

Here is an interesting notion: supposedly (according to those advocating for a lease and using Sunapee as an example...) if Cannon is leased, its skier visits would increase. Let's say that skier visits are more Zero Sum than not. So would the owner of a for profit ski area about to launch a major expansion be in favor of leasing a state run ski area and risking lost skier visits and revenue due to Cannon being supposedly better run and drawing more skier visits? Inquiring minds, and those interested in intellectual honesty want to know...

 

[riverc0il]

A Cannon/WV pass at $1K would great!.....for Burke's business

lolz

Cannon already partners with BW for mid-week season pass. I can't imagine BW would be in favor of Cannon also partnering with WV and retaining partnership with Cannon at the same time. That would lead to more WV visits and fewer BW visits.

 

[Rikka]

Some minor news:

Amy and her crew have been hard at work with trail improvements on Cannon - we took out the hard sharp turn so it would hold snow and traffic a little better. We also did some work to the top of Short Fuse, the runout from Upper Hardscrabble, the narrow bottom of Lower Hardscrabble, and lower Gremlin. Between those projects and attending to last winter's work around the Mittersill Double Chair, we will have thrown, tossed and spread 2000 bails of hay!

 

[thetrailboss]

Some minor news:

Amy and her crew have been hard at work with trail improvements on Cannon - we took out the hard sharp turn so it would hold snow and traffic a little better. We also did some work to the top of Short Fuse, the runout from Upper Hardscrabble, the narrow bottom of Lower Hardscrabble, and lower Gremlin. Between those projects and attending to last winter's work around the Mittersill Double Chair, we will have thrown, tossed and spread 2000 bails of hay!

Nice! Keep us posted!

 

[Edd]

lolz

Cannon already partners with BW for mid-week season pass. I can't imagine BW would be in favor of Cannon also partnering with WV and retaining partnership with Cannon at the same time. That would lead to more WV visits and fewer BW visits.

If I'm remembering correctly BW has been in partnership with WV along with Cranmore on a pass. That happened after Loon was sold to Boyne. That arrangement lasted 2 seasons, ending last season when Cranmore and WV parted ways, ownership-wise.

I don't know if BW considered that a beneficial relationship or not.

 

[threecy]

Here is an interesting notion: supposedly (according to those advocating for a lease and using Sunapee as an example...) if Cannon is leased, its skier visits would increase. Let's say that skier visits are more Zero Sum than not. So would the owner of a for profit ski area about to launch a major expansion be in favor of leasing a state run ski area and risking lost skier visits and revenue due to Cannon being supposedly better run and drawing more skier visits? Inquiring minds, and those interested in intellectual honesty want to know...

Circa 1990, Waterville was skiing 300,000 a year. At that time, Loon was skiing over 300,000 a year and Cannon was skiing 100,000, give or take a few 10K.

Circa 2010, Waterville was skiing 170,000 a year, Loon still around 300,000 a year, and Cannon around 100,000, give or take a few 10K.

 

[Cannonball]

Here is an interesting notion: supposedly (according to those advocating for a lease and using Sunapee as an example...) if Cannon is leased, its skier visits would increase. Let's say that skier visits are more Zero Sum than not. So would the owner of a for profit ski area about to launch a major expansion be in favor of leasing a state run ski area and risking lost skier visits and revenue due to Cannon being supposedly better run and drawing more skier visits? Inquiring minds, and those interested in intellectual honesty want to know....

Circa 1990, Waterville was skiing 300,000 a year. At that time, Loon was skiing over 300,000 a year and Cannon was skiing 100,000, give or take a few 10K.

Circa 2010, Waterville was skiing 170,000 a year, Loon still around 300,000 a year, and Cannon around 100,000, give or take a few 10K.

And Sunapee jumped from <100K to ~375K in the same time frame. Basically the same increase as Waterville's decrease over the same time period. Back to Riverc0il's concept/question: if overall skier numbers are a zero sum, are we just moving the same skiers around? Did increases at Sunapee come at the expense of decreases at WV? Would increases at WV and/or Cannon come at the expense of Sunapee? If so what are the implications for all three areas as 1) WV expands and 2) as potential collaborations
form under a Cannon-lease scenario?

 

[threecy]

And Sunapee jumped from <100K to ~375K in the same time frame.

Sunapee's at 288K, not 375K. Waterville had already dropped to the 200K range by the time Sunapee was leased.

 

[deadheadskier]

Since 1990 I think Waterville has probably lost more skiers to Okemo and Sunday River than Sunapee.

 

[Cannonball]

And Sunapee jumped from <100K to ~375K in the same time frame.

Sunapee's at 288K, not 375K. Waterville had already dropped to the 200K range by the time Sunapee was leased.

Roger that: typo.

So WV lost ~100K skiers/yr between ~1990 to 1998. Then lost ~30K/yr over the next 12 years. While Loon and Cannon held steady. (Impressive stat for Loon and Cannon). That suggest the WV skiers either dropped out altogether or started going somewhere else. Okemo and SR have been suggested. I'd guess Sunapee got some portion considering their rise in numbers.

Doesn't change the question though. Would new skiers come to WV following an expansion? If not, then it's a major failure. If so, from where? Would the same base come back from Sunapee, Okemo, and SR? What are the implications for those areas? Or would they pull from Loon and Cannon? If they pull from Cannon it would make a lease considerably less appealing for an investor. Unless Cannon & WV were part of the same operation. But that would take a pretty big and bold company to take on the Cannon lease AND all of those WV improvements at the same time.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think there is opportunity for NH to steal a number of Boston Market skier visits from the Southern Vermont Family resorts; Mt Snow, Stratton, Bromley and Okemo. Also from Sunday River.

Outside of Mt. Snow, Waterville is a closer drive for the Boston skier than all those other areas. I just think they need another 100 acres or so of terrain as what they currently have skis rather small IMO.

 

[deadheadskier]

actually, Mt. Snow is even a farther drive from Boston proper. Western suburbs it's about the same to get to Mt. Snow as Waterville.

 

[thetrailboss]

I think there is opportunity for NH to steal a number of Boston Market skier visits from the Southern Vermont Family resorts; Mt Snow, Stratton, Bromley and Okemo. Also from Sunday River.

Outside of Mt. Snow, Waterville is a closer drive for the Boston skier than all those other areas. I just think they need another 100 acres or so of terrain as what they currently have skis rather small IMO.

When you factor in how easy it is to get to WV compared to some of the Southern VT areas from Boston, there is a lot of potential for WV.

 

[jack97]

Along the 93 corridor, have to factor in Bretton Woods, they cater to the family crowd... Most of the time its the best compromise for everyone in the family. The word I hear was that they were not doing well in the 90s but turn things around late 90s and early 00. I have no numbers to back this up tho.

 

[thetrailboss]

Along the 93 corridor, have to factor in Bretton Woods, they cater to the family crowd... Most of the time its the best compromise for everyone in the family. The word I hear was that they were not doing well in the 90s but turn things around late 90s and early 00. I have no numbers to back this up tho.

This is a very good point. BW ate much of WV's lunch. The ownership changed in 1999 or so and they made massive improvements. It went from a low key family ski area for kids to the Okemo of NH with ego cruisers, high speed lifts, and lots of snowmaking. They brought up the folks that WV would otherwise have taken.

 

[jack97]

When you factor in how easy it is to get to WV compared to some of the Southern VT areas from Boston, there is a lot of potential for WV.

Travel time from metro west, boston and the border town (Nashua/Hudson), the difference between going to WV and Sunapee has to favor the later.

From metro west, mnt snow and Sunapee is a wash for travel time but lift tickets in vermont is more expensive.