cash for clunkers

[wa-loaf]

guys cut out the political discussions!!!

Yes, lets talk about healthcare!

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Yes, lets talk about healthcare!

please wa-loaf..this thread is about cars..start another thread about healthcare..

Shout out to Ted Kennedy

 

[Marc]

One thing I do know

Lots of strong opinions in this thread (none of them 100% right except for mine, which for the most part I'm keeping to myself :grin and very little chance of people switching sides to an opposing view.

probably why politics is generally a crappy 'debate' on message boards and at the dinner table.

Good format for dinner discussions: make it one sided only... so for the first half, one person is only allowed to ask questions and the other only allowed to answer. Then switch. I find that keeps debate very civil.

guys cut out the political discussions!!!

Lol, nice transparent mod attempt.

 

[dmc]

You're extremely confusing. You hate government intervention in your private life, yet welcome it when it comes to business. Want the gov't to prop up companies so the economy doesn't crash, but don't want the economy to do well through pursuit of better paying jobs.

whatever dude... i don't need you picking me apart.... You don't even know me... Or what i really stand for..

I just care about people suffering... And the collapse of our economy would actually make people die...

 

[dmc]

guys cut out the political discussions!!!

I haven't said anything political..

 

[Vortex]

I asked for it not to political and it seems to be decent mellow debate. My intent was to see if anyone else did this. My guess is the answer is no.

 

[mondeo]

 

[dmc]

They should have just let chaper 11 proceed as normal. Now it's a gigantic cluster "fudgesicle" with the dealers suing to keep their unprofitable dealers open, the unions keeping their overly rich benefits and retirement packages...it's obsurd.

Those people are fighting for their livelyhood... Can you blame them? Wouldn't you rather fight for what you have then be destitute and insuranceless???

I mean come on.. show some compassion... this isn't JUST numbers... it's people...

 

[drjeff]

Those people are fighting for their livelyhood... Can you blame them? Wouldn't you rather fight for what you have then be destitute and insuranceless???

I mean come on.. show some compassion... this isn't JUST numbers... it's people...

It is people, but very often in situations like we're talking about here it's people with a sense of entitlement(often false), where they're so quick to rally what they perceive to be their right (regular raises inspite of the economy, fully subsized healthcare, full pensions, regular and expected overtime, etc). The auto industry of today ISN'T anything resembling what it was 10, 20, 30+ years ago, however the expectations of the auto workers is, and in the modern, global economy one has to ask if that's really a realistic expectation???

*Note* me personally I've only owned GM cars (my wife on the other hand ) and I've got a couple of GM retirees as patients so I hear things from them. Plus as a boss, I have provided atleast annual raises, and maintained our medical and retirement benefits to date.

 

[dmc]

Call it what you want - but if you are given something and someone tries to take it away... It will piss you off... i don't care who you are... And if it's your living, your healthcare and your future... It's going really really piss you off... It's human nature..

I'm in IT - was laid off after 15 years at AT&T... the only thing I am is jealous of people that get all that stuff...

 

[mondeo]

I'm just so glad people are willing to assuage the suffering of their generation for the mere cost of increased suffering of mine...

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm just so glad people are willing to assuage the suffering of their generation for the mere cost of increased suffering of mine...

would you say that to a veteran?

are you suffering?

has any generation of Americans truly suffered for a long period of time due to the decisions of a prior generation?

If so, examples please

 

[mondeo]

would you say that to a veteran?

are you suffering?

has any generation of Americans truly suffered for a long period of time due to the decisions of a prior generation?

If so, examples please

dmc's word, not mine.

I think you have to go to China, Russia, and North Korea to find populations who have suffered as a whole due to the decisions of the previous generation, probably the only cases in history where populist movements caused suffering. Part of the perspective I've gained over the last year is that depressions/recessions aren't the universal tough times they're portrayed as in schools, but more of a a% has really tough times, b% lower their standard of living somewhat, c% stay level, and d% benefit more from the deflation than are hurt. Working engineering for a solid blue chip company, the lower cost of gas and food have more than offset the lack of a raise this year, and I'm in the market for a house.

But I do believe deficit spending is merely a way of putting off the pain, however much is due, and with the losses associated with it increases the total pain.

 

[deadheadskier]

dmc's word, not mine.
Working engineering for a solid blue chip company, the lower cost of gas and food have more than offset the lack of a raise this year, and I'm in the market for a house.

There was a point in time not too long ago where GM was far more sound a company than Boeing and I'm sure their young engineers viewed the recessions of those times with rose colored glasses because the downturn didn't really affect them and opened up some great opportunities.

It's great to be optimistic in light of opportunities presented to you even when times are bad for many others; just don't be narcissistic about life is what I believe dmc is getting at. You can't just say fuck em' to auto workers just like you can't just say fuck em' to New Orleans residents.

 

[mondeo]

You can't just say fuck em' to auto workers just like you can't just say fuck em' to New Orleans residents.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying 2 years of 5% higher than normal unemployment for 20 years of 2% is a lousy trade. 2 years of GDP decline is better than 20 years of stagnation. etc.

Nobody wants to see other people hurt. But bailouts help select groups by hurting the population. 100,000 people at one company or 10 at 10,000 companies, you've still got the same number of people unemployed.

 

[dmc]

dmc's word, not mine

huh?

 

[dmc]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying 2 years of 5% higher than normal unemployment for 20 years of 2% is a lousy trade. 2 years of GDP decline is better than 20 years of stagnation. etc.

Nobody wants to see other people hurt. But bailouts help select groups by hurting the population. 100,000 people at one company or 10 at 10,000 companies, you've still got the same number of people unemployed.

Your never going to sway me... I care too much about the suffering thats happening now.

 

[Glenn]

Those people are fighting for their livelyhood... Can you blame them? Wouldn't you rather fight for what you have then be destitute and insuranceless???

I mean come on.. show some compassion... this isn't JUST numbers... it's people...

Can't say I blame them. But on the other hand, we're the collateral damage in this one. It's really easy to justify "helping" someone keep their dealership or their job; it's almost a tangable example. But what about the rest of us who don't get a bailout? Or have to pay for this for the next x number of years? Or the fact that money that's being thrown at saving one job, is probably costing 2 or 3 elsewhere in the ol' economy?

 

[mondeo]

Your never going to sway me... I care too much about the suffering thats happening now.

No one's going to sway anyone here.

But you're not going to get me to feel guilty for looking at the total impact of what's happening instead of the 4 year impact which many others are looking at.

 

[dmc]

No one's going to sway anyone here.

But you're not going to get me to feel guilty for looking at the total impact of what's happening instead of the 4 year impact which many others are looking at.

not my intention to make you feel guilty..