CNL..the new big kahuna

[ski_resort_observer]

CNL, a REIT based in sunny Florida, has quietly become the biggest ski resort owner in the east with SR, Sugarloaf, Bretton Woods and Loon so far in their stable. Who will be next?

 

[deadheadskier]

Is Boyne a division or an operations arm of CNL?

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Boyne is both a ski resort owner and operates resorts owned by CNL. The SR and Sugarloaf were particularily slick transactions in that Boyne bought the resorts from ASC then turned around and sold them to CNL, staying on as contracted operators. Boyne bought the company operating Loon, which was under the wing of Booth Creek, so they operate the resort owned by CNL Just Google Boyne, long standing family ski resort owners and operators.

BTW, did you catch the large article in the Portland Press Herald(July 17th), "Otten on Otten"? Lots of details on how he lost out on his bid for SR and the Loaf and other details about ASC/Oak Hill et al.

 

[snowman]

I've always wondered why an amusement park company hasn't gotten into the ski business or vice versa. Both operations are quite similar...and a lot of parks are seasonal. You could cross-utilize almost everyone in both operations from parking lot attendants to general managers. The insurance carriers are usually the same, and having more revenue to dangle in front of them nets you a lower rate when you have a good record. The main stumbling point I guess would be that the main amusement park company, Six Flags, is in almost as deep a financial mess as ASC was and is liquidating parks to pay debt. Intrawest and Cedar Fair, the 2 main solvent companies in the 2 industries would be an interesting marriage though......

 

[riverc0il]

Big problem with cross utilizing staff at amusement parks and ski areas is they are usually not near each other so people are not going to relocate or commute 3-4 hours or more. Also, lots of college and high school kids fill the ranks of amusement parks during the Summer but they are all in class during the winter. Amusement parks don't seem to rely so much on real estate either, generally directing traffic to outside lodging. Disney, of course, does things up right and proper with a resort on the property.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Waterville and Cranmore are rumored to be next on the CNL hit list for NE...both owned by Booth Creek, the co that sold loon and northstar at tahoe to CNL.

 

[Vortex]

Question is who will take them? Land right on mountain to develope is not really availible I don't think.

 

[Angus]

anti-trust concerns?

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

anti-trust concerns?

you'd think so wouldn't you...they made LBO dump Waterville and Cranmore for that reason...but I'm sure CNL has a better legal team than LBO did back then.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

anti-trust concerns?

Sounds crazy but remember when Otten/ASC bought SKI ltd and was forced to sell Cranmore and WV by a federal judge for that very reason.

 

[snowman]

Big problem with cross utilizing staff at amusement parks and ski areas is they are usually not near each other so people are not going to relocate or commute 3-4 hours or more. Also, lots of college and high school kids fill the ranks of amusement parks during the Summer but they are all in class during the winter. Amusement parks don't seem to rely so much on real estate either, generally directing traffic to outside lodging. Disney, of course, does things up right and proper with a resort on the property.

I was thinking more of the advent of retaining skilled full time staff (mechanics, accountants etc etc) more so than the parking attendants, although if you could keep them too that would be great. The full timers tend to be a bit nomadic anyway due to the seasonality of their jobs. Full time seasonal employee retention is a problem in both industries because your employees essentially have 6 months to find something "better" every year. If you can lock them into a full time job, the problem would pretty much go away. You would likely also end up getting a better rate for each job because you end up overpaying for skilled seasonal workers due to the short term employment factor. I've always thought the likes of 6 flags New England should be set up next door to a ski hill to make use of the lodging facilities in the summer. Heck, if you design it right, you could even use the same parking lots. Mountain Creek would be a prime example. They already have a water park, why not build on that? Amusement parks are starting to get into hotel building too, but it has in no way caught on like wild fire yet. The potential smacks me in the face because I've studied both industries.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I was thinking more of the advent of retaining skilled full time staff (mechanics, accountants etc etc) more so than the parking attendants, although if you could keep them too that would be great. The full timers tend to be a bit nomadic anyway due to the seasonality of their jobs. Full time seasonal employee retention is a problem in both industries because your employees essentially have 6 months to find something "better" every year. If you can lock them into a full time job, the problem would pretty much go away. You would likely also end up getting a better rate for each job because you end up overpaying for skilled seasonal workers due to the short term employment factor. I've always thought the likes of 6 flags New England should be set up next door to a ski hill to make use of the lodging facilities in the summer. Heck, if you design it right, you could even use the same parking lots. Mountain Creek would be a prime example. They already have a water park, why not build on that? Amusement parks are starting to get into hotel building too, but it has in no way caught on like wild fire yet. The potential smacks me in the face because I've studied both industries.

While every major ski resort is trying to become a 4-season business I don't think most ski resorts have any interest in sharing their property with a Six Flags type amusement part. I do agree that ski resorts near big cities, like Mountain Creek, would be an exception.

For those resorts leasing land from state or national forest land or in a rural location which would include most of the resorts, an amusement park would be almost impossible to pull off plus the local governments/communities would be a huge obstacle as well.

Ski resorts are much more interested in using their summer outdoor recreation possibilities(mountain biking, ziplines, chairlift rides, hiking and disc golf) rather than a large amusement park for summer business. The potential might look great on paper but in reality they would rarely work.

 

[snowman]

While every major ski resort is trying to become a 4-season business I don't think most ski resorts have any interest in sharing their property with a Six Flags type amusement part. I do agree that ski resorts near big cities, like Mountain Creek, would be an exception.

For those resorts leasing land from state or national forest land or in a rural location which would include most of the resorts, an amusement park would be almost impossible to pull off plus the local governments/communities would be a huge obstacle as well.

Ski resorts are much more interested in using their summer outdoor recreation possibilities(mountain biking, ziplines, chairlift rides, hiking and disc golf) rather than a large amusement park for summer business. The potential might look great on paper but in reality they would rarely work.

I'm not saying plop one at the base of Sugarloaf, but, I think you got the idea with my reference to MC. I'm not saying plop one at every resort either, just a strategic play here and there. Most major amusement parks are usually an hour or 2 from a major city and lend themselves to the whole "destination" concept like ski resorts. The amusement parks which ARE in major cities are being bought and gutted for their real estate value these days. Just food for thought. If I had 200 million dollars, I would most likely embark on doing it myself.

 

[deadheadskier]

If I had 200 million dollars, I would most likely embark on doing it myself.

You don't have $200 mil? Wow, figured that would be chump change for you.

 

[SkiDog]

Dude mtn creek is basically a dump anymore....they get hardly any snow....the "amusement" park STINKS....just run down old vernon valley certainly not a "destination resort" and NEVER will be..

Yeah ummm I lived in NJ basically my ENTIRE life...and been skiing Vernon Valley and Hidden Valley since im about 10.

M