Criminalizing out of bounds?

[dmc]

Here we go.....I find it extremely unlikely almost impossible for the Catskills to sustain a breeding population. There are plenty of very large Bobcats out there but the Eastern Catamount has long been extinct.

Some say yes(locals)... Some say no(DEC)...

I'll believe it when I see one.. But until then.. Enough people have said they've seen them for me to raise an eyebrow..

We see bobcats around for sure... But they don't look anything like a Catamount...

 

[MadMadWorld]

http://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/eij/article/cat_eyes

Not saying folks didn't see a cougar because we now know that there was at least one confirmed sighting (western cougar from ND) in CT. But a sustained breeding population of Eastern Cougar is almost impossible.

 

[dmc]

Certainly not something to worry about in the back country.. Hopefully..

 

[fbrissette]

http://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/eij/article/cat_eyes

There are lots of websites and a lot of stories, but until someone turns out good tracks, fur for DNA analysis, or, even better, a dead animal, the official word will be that it is still extinct. But it is undeniably moving east. There are official sightings in Eastern Ontario, so it is very believable that it is back in Vermont and New York.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/09/ontario-cops-kill-cougar

 

[fbrissette]

Just saw this. Looks like no fines for now.

http://www.fox44abc22yourvoice.com/story/21349689/bill-would-impose-fine-for-skiing-out-of-bounds

Educating skiers is the remaining solution I guess.

 

[dmc]

Like I said - until I see one... I'm skeptical..
But enough have said they've seen them.. So - I have to think maybe somethings up...
Weather they are from the west or were always here... I don't know..

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Certainly not something to worry about in the back country.. Hopefully..

I'm all for extinct animals making a rebound but man I don't want to run into a big cat.

I see bobcat tracks frequently and am surprised how big they are. Wouldn't want altercation with any cat. Not even a house cat.

 

[dmc]

 

[MadMadWorld]

There are lots of websites and a lot of stories, but until someone turns out good tracks, fur for DNA analysis, or, even better, a dead animal, the official word will be that it is still extinct. But it is undeniably moving east. There are official sightings in Eastern Ontario, so it is very believable that it is back in Vermont and New York.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/09/ontario-cops-kill-cougar

The deer population is certainly growing which may be a reason why we have seen transients. Like this one in CT:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-11/...1_mountain-lion-suv-driver-greenwich?_s=PM:US

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

View attachment 7917

Thanks for this. I think I'll take a measurement of the tracks I see because they certainly appear bigger than what this chart shows for a bobcat. Near Jay I see tons of tracks. Over lapping and all over a wide area.

 

[dmc]

Just take into account snow melt and stuff...

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Just take into account snow melt and stuff...

Meaning as the snow melts the print expands and deepens a bit?

 

[darent]

I am no lawyer and not familiar with US laws but I think you are overracting. Illegal and criminal are two different things. Clearly, skiiing out of bound will not be within the realm of Criminal Law.

I would think it has to be declared illegal for a fine to come with it. It would be very similar to speeding or public urination for example. Both are illegals, come with a fine but are NOT on your criminal record since these have nothing to do with Criminal Law. Surely there has got to be a lawyer somewhere on this Forum ?

public urination is covered under criminal law, you can be charged as a sex offender if the police want to be pricks!

 

[ScottySkis]

public urination is covered under criminal law, you can be charged as a sex offender if the police want to be pricks!

That would not be good for someone.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Catamounts roaming around would actually deter me! Petty sure no confirmed sightings since the 1930's?

There have been a few sightings in North Jersey (which I do not believe).

There are plenty of very large Bobcats out there but the Eastern Catamount has long been extinct.

That's what my guess is to whenever people think they've seen a catamount. Or something bizarre like a possible zoo escapee or truly bizarre like an eco-nutjob trying to reestablish them.

 

[snowmonster]

I just saw this on Facebook from David Goodman:

"A good day at the Vt State House: S.111, the bill I testified against that would have criminalized backcountry skiing in Vt (if you needed rescue), is now dead. Many thanks to the sensible members of the Vt Senate Judiciary Committee who wisely put this bill out of its misery: Sens. Dick Sears, Joe Benning, Alice Nitka, Tim Ashe, & Jeanette White. -- with Neil Van Dyke, Adam Howard, Amy Kelsey, Will Wiquist."

 

[BenedictGomez]

I just saw this on Facebook from David Goodman:

"A good day at the Vt State House: S.111, the bill I testified against that would have criminalized backcountry skiing in Vt (if you needed rescue), is now dead. Many thanks to the sensible members of the Vt Senate Judiciary Committee who wisely put this bill out of its misery: Sens. Dick Sears, Joe Benning, Alice Nitka, Tim Ashe, & Jeanette White. -- with Neil Van Dyke, Adam Howard, Amy Kelsey, Will Wiquist."

lol, notice how "if you needed rescue" is parenthetical.

While I agree with him on the issue, I do note the demagoguery.

 

[riverc0il]

lol, notice how "if you needed rescue" is parenthetical.

While I agree with him on the issue, I do note the demagoguery.

Not sure I follow your train of thought, here. The fact is that the bill in question criminalized an activity based on the outcome. It was only illegal if you needed rescue. Perhaps the parenthesis were not needed but are you chalking such a simple stylistic preference up to an appeal to emotion? In my opinion, this bill couldn't be lampooned enough. This would make someone cross country skiing on the Catamount Trail guilty of a crime if they dug in a tip while kicking and gliding and pulled a muscle. We should pay for our rescue by criminalizing the need for help? I don't think there was enough demagoguery to be quiet frank... the law maker that proposed that bill should be roasted with ample vitriol, IMO. It isn't just a dumb bill, it is a dumb mind that would even propose such a law. I read DG's post as pretty damn level headed, all things considered.

 

[Scruffy]

Wait a minute. I do not agree at all with the Bill, and I did not read it as submitted; however, if this quote in the paper is accuate "illegal to use the “facilities of a ski area to access terrain outside the ski area’s open and designated ski trails (if) as a result, (the skier) must be rescued by a rescue organization.” ...
it would not affect anyone backcountry skiing on their own, i.e parking at a trail head, skining up or XC skiing the Catamount.
But I guess if Goodman is testifying, the actual language of the Bill must have been broadened.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Perhaps the parenthesis were not needed but are you chalking such a simple stylistic preference up to an appeal to emotion? In my opinion, this bill couldn't be lampooned enough.

No, what I meant is that the omission of the non-stated text in parenthesis entirely changes the statement, and they were inserted to reflect the actual reality.

Without the parenthesis, the statement reads that ANY backcountry ski outing is illegal, something that 90% of voters would disagree with.