Electric Cars/Trucks and winter weather testing with results. What do you think? Who has taken one in Freezing cold long distance to a Ski mountain?

[Granite1]

There's already not enough raw earth minerals (80 percent controlled by our enemy China) to produce all these EV batteries. Now you want to have 2-3 times as many to swap over?????? Who's going to pay to have all these spare batteries laying around-each one cost thousands and thousands????? In addition, 2-3 times more environmental damage, and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

typical stoner response… sad.

 

[ThatGuy]

typical stoner response… sad.

 

[Not Sure]

There's already not enough raw earth minerals (80 percent controlled by our enemy China) to produce all these EV batteries. Now you want to have 2-3 times as many to swap over?????? Who's going to pay to have all these spare batteries laying around-each one cost thousands and thousands????? In addition, 2-3 times more environmental damage, and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.

An ICE module with a generator that replaces the battery

 

[Granite1]

Only in fairyland can you drive your EV up to a station and have it swapped over just like that. For example, to change a long range battery in a 2022 Tesla Model 3 takes six hours. If you own one, I hope you never have to buy one---a new OEM battery cost $14,000. Don't worry though, in fairyland these drive up swap stations are going to have dozens of them just laying around to swap over.

 

[Not Sure]

Fires from exploding e-bike batteries multiply in NYC — sometimes fatally

New York City is on track this year to record twice as many fires caused by e-bike and e-scooter batteries as last year, and four times as many as the year before.

www.npr.org

Definitely an unsafe chemistry no matter how you look at it.

 

[Granite1]

Everyone in fairyland is stoned, indoctrinated, immature or just plain dumb.

 

[IceEidolon]

Fires from exploding e-bike batteries multiply in NYC — sometimes fatally

New York City is on track this year to record twice as many fires caused by e-bike and e-scooter batteries as last year, and four times as many as the year before.

www.npr.org

Definitely an unsafe chemistry no matter how you look at it.

So is gasoline. Cars have been burning up as long as there's been cars - it tends to happen with just about any material with enough energy density to run a vehicle.

 

[SteezyRob]

4) I'm worried about net EV safety - Here's something I never hear anyone say (again, because IMO the entire media are EV cheerleaders), but highways are going to be more dangerous once everyone's driving insanely fast cars which accelerate like rocket ships and which are each 300 to 800 pounds heavier than their ICE counterparts? The average car crash is probably going to have about 1000 additional pounds of mass. No manufacturer can invent a solution to F=MA. Not to mention, the cars are more flammable. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think it's odd nobody even mentions this. My long-term prediction here (this is probably 10 or more years out) is that after highway fatalities increase in a statistically significant fashion, governments will mandate governors on EV cars to restrict their top speed as well as maximum allowable acceleration. Think of it like NASCAR restrictor plate racing, but on our roads.

True but I think that manufacturers are going to go crazy with the whole safety thing real soon. Reporting you to authorities if you breaks laws, starting off with big ones and slowly adding more and more until you can't go over the speed limit without risking going to jail.

 

[trackbiker]

No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?

Fuel Cells are the future. The only reason batteries are the current offering is because most people have access to electricity at their homes for charging. Trucks and other fleet vehicles will run on hydrogen fuel cells. They already have their own gas/diesel fueling stations where they refuel when they return to the terminal. H2 can be generated by solar power on warehouse roofs, be compressed, and used to fuel trucks and other fleet vehicles. Fuel cells are lighter than batteries and provide more equivalent MPG. Truck stops will add hydrogen fueling stations so over-the-road trucks can refuel. You don't have to have one on every corner to get started but that will eventually come. There weren't gas stations on every corner when ICE vehicles came into being.
Plug Power in Latham, NY is one of the leading companies in the technology.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

I find the focus on range to be misguided. Electric cars obviously have worse range and take longer to "refill" than a gas or diesel car. They're known to have even worse range in the cold. But they have plenty of other benefits - they drive great, they're better for the environment, they are more spacious for a given size, cost less to operate & maintain per mile, and are simpler (leaving aside Tesla's decision to reinvent every non-drive train aspect of the car). The manufacturers should lean more into their strengths rather than constantly being defensive of their weaknesses.

Most families that buy new cars have more than 1 car. The 2nd car is for running to the grocery store or dropping the kids off at school or whichever person has a short commute. Range is just immaterial. Rarely are multiple people in the house all off on super long road trips at the same time. In which case, make the equivalent of a Tesla 3 but with half the battery. Leave all that weight, material, and cost behind. I'm certain a lot of people could live with 150 mile range for their second car, especially if it was $25K instead of 35K+.

The idea that EVs are only relevant if they can do the thing they are worst at (driving long distances in the cold) makes no sense. But we're overshooting the markets actual needs by designing for the hardest case and that has a cost for everyone since EV production is constrained by the availability of batteries. Make twice as many EVs with half the battery size and the costs would come down for everyone (gas car owners included).

It is a relevant topic for a Northeast Ski discussion group. I am the only driver in my household so I have a single car. My enjoying driving 6-10 roundtrips from NJ to northern New England to ski every winter prevents any EV from being a viable option for me - at least until they have refillable fuel sells or quickly swappable batteries. None of their benefits outweigh the cost of having a second vehicle.

 

[IceEidolon]

Fuel Cells are the future. The only reason batteries are the current offering is because most people have access to electricity at their homes for charging. Trucks and other fleet vehicles will run on hydrogen fuel cells. They already have their own gas/diesel fueling stations where they refuel when they return to the terminal. H2 can be generated by solar power on warehouse roofs, be compressed, and used to fuel trucks and other fleet vehicles. Fuel cells are lighter than batteries and provide more equivalent MPG. Truck stops will add hydrogen fueling stations so over-the-road trucks can refuel. You don't have to have one on every corner to get started but that will eventually come. There weren't gas stations on every corner when ICE vehicles came into being.
Plug Power in Latham, NY is one of the leading companies in the technology.

Fuel cells still require hydrogen storage and hydrogen production with all the extra infrastructure, expense, and complexity that comes with it. Right now, that's a huge deal breaker. I can't see that displacing BEVs without something really novel happening. Most people won't buy something with an energy cost of $6 per gallon equivalent (currently hydrogen is substantially higher than that, like $15/gal equivalent) when an alternative is available (either legacy ICE or BEVs). As a relatively niche market like biodiesel now, maybe.

 

[trackbiker]

Fuel cells still require hydrogen storage and hydrogen production with all the extra infrastructure, expense, and complexity that comes with it. Right now, that's a huge deal breaker. I can't see that displacing BEVs without something really novel happening. Most people won't buy something with an energy cost of $6 per gallon equivalent (currently hydrogen is substantially higher than that, like $15/gal equivalent) when an alternative is available (either legacy ICE or BEVs). As a relatively niche market like biodiesel now, maybe.

I work in an industry that is related to hydrogen production and compression. The supply is about to go way up.

 

[Not Sure]

I work in an industry that is related to hydrogen production and compression. The supply is about to go way up.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223879250_Effect_of_sub-freezing_temperatures_on_a_PEM_fuel_cell_performance_startup_and_fuel_cell_components#:~:text=The%20fuel%20cell%20was%20also,damaged%20fuel%20cell%20internal%20components.

So you need to keep them from freezing or somehow blow out all the water after shutdown ?

 

[ss20]

Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run. They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension. Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof. To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid. That's $1,200-$1,500. Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV. I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient. ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).

Also with electricity and gasoline prices alllllll over the place not sure anyone can safely predict that they'd recoup the purchase price of an EV with gasoline savings (over the life of the car). New England residential electricity is up 5 cents/kwh over last year. 20.8 cents to 25.6. 23% increase. AAA has the price of gasoline in New York at $3.81 today and $3.54 a year ago, a 7% increase.

 

[Granite1]

Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run. They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension. Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof. To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid. That's $1,200-$1,500. Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV. I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient. ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).

Also with electricity and gasoline prices alllllll over the place not sure anyone can safely predict that they'd recoup the purchase price of an EV with gasoline savings (over the life of the car). New England residential electricity is up 5 cents/kwh over last year. 20.8 cents to 25.6. 23% increase. AAA has the price of gasoline in New York at $3.81 today and $3.54 a year ago, a 7% increase.

You have to remember EVs are a big part of fairytale land, where there are no fossil fuels, just wind mills and solar panels.

 

[RichT]

BTW after next week all this "Green New Deal" stuff will start to go away.

 

[trackbiker]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223879250_Effect_of_sub-freezing_temperatures_on_a_PEM_fuel_cell_performance_startup_and_fuel_cell_components#:~:text=The%20fuel%20cell%20was%20also,damaged%20fuel%20cell%20internal%20components.

So you need to keep them from freezing or somehow blow out all the water after shutdown ?

That report is from 2006. There are several solutions to the cold start problem. One is the fuel cell can be programmed to start and generates heat at cold temperatures. The FC can warm the car and/or charge a battery. It would operate like a thermostat in a building.

 

[fbrissette]

...and 2-3 times more electricity that we don't have to keep them all charged. EVs for the masses can only happen in fairytale land.

Electricity generation is indeed a huge issue and is barely discussed. Gouvernements are pushing electrical vehicles way to quickly. Pretty simple to work out the maths. Adding tens of millions of electric vehicle would entail adding hundreds of Gwatts of new generating stations, most of which being thermal plants burning the same fossil fuel not used by cars. To make sense, the transition towards electrical vehicles should follow the energy transition towards renewable energy. Right now it does not compute.

 

[Puck it]