Electric Cars/Trucks and winter weather testing with results. What do you think? Who has taken one in Freezing cold long distance to a Ski mountain?

[drjeff]

Electricity generation is indeed a huge issue and is barely discussed. Gouvernements are pushing electrical vehicles way to quickly. Pretty simple to work out the maths. Adding tens of millions of electric vehicle would entail adding hundreds of Gwatts of new generating stations, most of which being thermal plants burning the same fossil fuel not used by cars. To make sense, the transition towards electrical vehicles should follow the energy transition towards renewable energy. Right now it does not compute.

The reality is that the transition should be viewed as say a 25yr (or more event) not the push for 10yrs as many governments seem to be trying to legislate now. Also the transition probably should be ICE vehicles to gas/electruc hybrids to EV's (or some other non ICE technology that may arise and prove scaleable enough and cost effective enough to be implemented) rather than the current hard push from ICE to EV's going on. There seems to be a bit of wishing on the part of legislators that doesn't jive with reality, and makes one wonder if some pushing the legislation might also believe in say unicorns and fairy dust.

The reality is that when you try and push something that is very likley going to cause a "set back" in the lifestyle of many as the attempts to quickly implement it happen, there is going to be some pushback for sure, and if anything as we emerge from the pandemic and see now that some of the measures that were pushed on society, and then kept in place for an extended period of time that was very likely far greater than was needed (if needed at all in some instances) you're going to see less trust by more in society the next time a wide scale governmental push of something is rushed at the public. The degree of skepticism has certianly increased in many as a result of the pandemic

 

[tumbler]

Massachusetts elec rates rates rising 64% today.

 

[jimmywilson69]

every supplier is rising 64%??? that seems sort of odd. Is MA still regulating power prices? in PA they are not regulated and you can shop for prices and "lock in" rates.

Its sort of stupid and a pain in the ass...

 

[IceEidolon]

Not sure about EV's and their significantly lower maintenance costs really saving someone in the long run. They still need tires, brakes, and a suspension. Modern ICE cars are just ridiculously bulletproof. To get to 150k miles you need a dozen oil changes (full synth), a couple coolant flushes, and a drop/drain on the tranny fluid. That's $1,200-$1,500. Not sure how that recoups the cost of the $15k+ more you'd spend on a comparable EV. I just also hate the concept that the EV needs to be trashed once the battery is no longer efficient. ICE's are running 200k+ miles with a little bit of luck and decent preventative maintenance (no more than what I outlined above).

Let's say I buy an EV with a listed 300 mile range. I keep it ten years, the battery degrades to 80% of initial capacity in that time (that's high but not outlandish) and I sell it on the used market with 200,000 miles on it (also high for a 10 year old car). The battery hasn't failed. It should continue to lose capacity slowly but indications from old EVs and hybrids are generally that the batteries can keep on trucking for a long while if you can tolerate slightly reduced range. For this example, a 240 mile (80% of 300) car is still very viable as anything but a road trip machine. There's no timing belt to replace, a lot fewer fluids to leak, the brake wear is substantially lower because of regenerative braking, the power company is handling your tailpipe emissions and doing a better job than your catalytic converter could...

Or, a scrapyard buys a ready to retire EV and harvests the battery pack. Let's say the control electronics went bad, or some other failure that wasn't the battery but isn't worth fixing on an old car. That pack can be paired with new control hardware and reused in stationary storage. Sometimes it can be parted out to replace degraded cells in other EVs (this is already common with older hybrids, where the small total capacity and number of cells plus lack of battery cooling help cause more failures). This is actually a pretty significant criticism of Tesla's structural battery pack archetectute but that hasn't been put into production anywhere yet, and there may be mitigations so that repairs and reuse are practical. We'll see.

As for the cost argument, EV prices are being inflated by consumer demand (in the US). Let's say the tax incentives are responsible for half the current claimed $15,000 premium. Apparently enough people value the benefits of EVs to want them $7,500 more than comparable ICE cars. $1,500 of that is maintenance, in some consumers - fewer brake changes (but not nonexistent -thanks, regenerative braking) and a dozen oil changes and a timing belt change and a transmission service - plus the reduced price of fuel (electricity is likely to stay cheaper than gas if you charge at home, even if electricity goes up) but there's also the convenience factor of not needing to go to a gas station or having other less tangible benefits.

And if you don't believe me about maintenance savings, why are some dealerships so reluctant to sell EVs? They're worried about their service center revenue dropping off.

 

[BenedictGomez]

No mention of hydrogen powered EV's ?

I'm not a believer.

There's a smallcap called Hyzon Motors (HYZN) if you're interested in that sort of thing though.

Hydrogen Fuel Cells for Heavy Industry | Hyzon

Hyzon builds high-performance hydrogen fuel cells that provide zero-emission power for the most demanding jobs.

www.hyzonmotors.com

 

[BenedictGomez]

Only in fairyland can you drive your EV up to a station and have it swapped over just like that. For example, to change a long range battery in a 2022 Tesla Model 3 takes six hours.

Yes, indeed, "fairyland" or alternatively, China.

 

[x10003q]

Massachusetts elec rates rates rising 64% today.

and this is why power companies in Massachusetts and Maine are fighting the powerline connection to Hydro Quebec going though Maine.

 

[trackbiker]

As for the cost argument, EV prices are being inflated by consumer demand (in the US). Let's say the tax incentives are responsible for half the current claimed $15,000 premium. Apparently enough people value the benefits of EVs to want them $7,500 more than comparable ICE cars. $1,500 of that is maintenance, in some consumers - fewer brake changes (but not nonexistent -thanks, regenerative braking) and a dozen oil changes and a timing belt change and a transmission service - plus the reduced price of fuel (electricity is likely to stay cheaper than gas if you charge at home, even if electricity goes up) but there's also the convenience factor of not needing to go to a gas station or having other less tangible benefits.

EV's have much fewer parts than ICE's. It's essentially a battery and two or four motors. There is no engine block, valves, fuel injector, spark plugs, transmission, distributor, exhaust manifold, muffler, catalytic converter, radiator, car battery, etc. Once the battery prices come down and production meets or exceeds demand, prices will drop considerably below ICE's. How long will that take? Who knows? But it will happen.

 

[VTKilarney]

I own a Chevrolet Bolt. I don't have time to read the entire thread, so pardon me if this has been covered.

In the winter, if I use my heater like I want to, my range loss is 35-40%.

Level 3 chargers are notoriously unreliable and still take time even when they are working.

I love my Bolt... as my household's second car. I simply don't use it for long trips. Yes, it is possible, but it isn't fun watching your range drop hoping that the one Level 3 charger nearby is available and working - and when you finally make it to the charger, realizing that it is in an area with nothing to do for the next 45 minutes to an hour.

 

[Granite1]

Yes, indeed, "fairyland" or alternatively, China.

You nailed it? China loves fairyland and all the fairies. Attached are screen shots from your video showing how you drive up to a service station conveniently located on every street corner. Just pull up and have your battery swapped over. Only a billion cars and trucks that need to have a service station bay to pull into and be lifted up to swap over all these extra batteries that somehow are going to be all charged and ready to go at little cost??????

 

[Granite1]

You nailed it? China loves fairyland and all the fairies. Attached are screen shots from your video showing how you drive up to a service station conveniently located on every street corner. Just pull up and have your battery swapped over. Only a billion cars and trucks that need to have a service station bay to pull into and be lifted up to swap over all these extra batteries that somehow are going to be all charged and ready to go at little cost??????

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

Let's say I buy an EV with a listed 300 mile range. I keep it ten years, the battery degrades to 80% of initial capacity in that time (that's high but not outlandish) and I sell it on the used market with 200,000 miles on it (also high for a 10 year old car). The battery hasn't failed. It should continue to lose capacity slowly but indications from old EVs and hybrids are generally that the batteries can keep on trucking for a long while if you can tolerate slightly reduced range. For this example, a 240 mile (80% of 300) car is still very viable as anything but a road trip machine. There's no timing belt to replace, a lot fewer fluids to leak, the brake wear is substantially lower because of regenerative braking, the power company is handling your tailpipe emissions and doing a better job than your catalytic converter could...

Or, a scrapyard buys a ready to retire EV and harvests the battery pack. Let's say the control electronics went bad, or some other failure that wasn't the battery but isn't worth fixing on an old car. That pack can be paired with new control hardware and reused in stationary storage. Sometimes it can be parted out to replace degraded cells in other EVs (this is already common with older hybrids, where the small total capacity and number of cells plus lack of battery cooling help cause more failures). This is actually a pretty significant criticism of Tesla's structural battery pack archetectute but that hasn't been put into production anywhere yet, and there may be mitigations so that repairs and reuse are practical. We'll see.

As for the cost argument, EV prices are being inflated by consumer demand (in the US). Let's say the tax incentives are responsible for half the current claimed $15,000 premium. Apparently enough people value the benefits of EVs to want them $7,500 more than comparable ICE cars. $1,500 of that is maintenance, in some consumers - fewer brake changes (but not nonexistent -thanks, regenerative braking) and a dozen oil changes and a timing belt change and a transmission service - plus the reduced price of fuel (electricity is likely to stay cheaper than gas if you charge at home, even if electricity goes up) but there's also the convenience factor of not needing to go to a gas station or having other less tangible benefits.

And if you don't believe me about maintenance savings, why are some dealerships so reluctant to sell EVs? They're worried about their service center revenue dropping off.

Maybe they have doubts about the viability of EV's. Also do they have the technicians in place trained to service them?

 

[IceEidolon]

Maybe they have doubts about the viability of EV's. Also do they have the technicians in place trained to service them?

Do they care about viability? Or are they more concerned that they'll profit less because you definitely won't come back to them for oil changes, so they steer you to an ICE vehicle.

 

[abc]

It is a relevant topic for a Northeast Ski discussion group. I am the only driver in my household so I have a single car. My enjoying driving 6-10 roundtrips from NJ to northern New England to ski every winter prevents any EV from being a viable option for me - at least until they have refillable fuel sells or quickly swappable batteries. None of their benefits outweigh the cost of having a second vehicle.

It’s only “relevant” if you’re a single car “family”!

The whole point of the argument is, EV are good as a second car. And that’s the focus they should be on. In that role, the range doesn’t matter!

So if you don’t have a second car, you should forget about an EV. Simple as that.

Alternatively, it’s irrelevant for those of the same...in that you just read this whole thread as entertainment. It’s like a room full of men discussing pregnancy. It can be entertaining but still totally irrelevant.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

It’s only “relevant” if you’re a single car “family”!

The whole point of the argument is, EV are good as a second car. And that’s the focus they should be on. In that role, the range doesn’t matter!

So if you don’t have a second car, you should forget about an EV. Simple as that.

Alternatively, it’s irrelevant for those of the same...in that you just read this whole thread as entertainment. It’s like a room full of men discussing pregnancy. It can be entertaining but still totally irrelevant.

Ok - so if it's not relevant to you, maybe don't participate. I am interested in developments in EV infrastructure and technology that could one day make them viable for me, though they are not at present. Since there is talk of mandating all vehicles be electric, cold weather range is relevant to all of us (assuming there is still cold weather when that comes to pass)

Discussions about skiing in Maine are irrelevant to me, but I don't object to their being here.

 

[ThatGuy]

Also if EVs are going to be mandated then shouldn’t they be viable as the sole car in the household?

 

[ThatGuy]

I can barely afford one car and some of y’all out here like my peasant ass should have two so my dirty fumes don’t ruin your air.

 

[cdskier]

I'm really struggling to understand how EV-only would work without some major improvements to infrastructure or technology. My recent vacation involved 1250 miles of driving (about 250 each way between home and my destination with the rest being driving around the Finger Lakes for 8 days). I filled up my tank 3 times on the trip. Took 5 minutes each fill up so easily fit in my schedule. I was staying at an AirBnB. If I had an EV, how would I charge it? Would every single AirBnB (and hotel, motel, etc) need to offer EV charging in the future so guests can charge overnight? In general there are only a handful of public EV charging locations within 15 miles of where I was staying (near Geneva, NY...which is not exactly a small town in the middle of nowhere). I believe there was only 1 winery on my trip that had a few EV charging plugs in their parking lot. But you're only at a single winery maybe an hour or so on the high end. Nice gesture from them, but how much would that brief amount of charging actually help?

I'm not saying it is impossible...but you need either a way to charge extremely quickly or need charging stations virtually at every address if charging is going to take any significant amount of time. Otherwise EV just isn't going to be practical for a significant amount of people as their only car. (And assuming people can have multiple cars for different purposes is also not realistic).

 

[BodeMiller1]

and this is why power companies in Massachusetts and Maincanadian mountye are fighting the powerline connection to Hydro Quebec going though Maine.

Hydro Quebec
The Canadians flooded a huge amount of land to build the dams. This is a great example of environmental groups not being able to see the forest for the trees.

 

[IceEidolon]

Throwing a 240v 20A circuit in a vacation rental probably will be expected, much like color TV or air conditioning is now expected equipment. Whether use of that charger is part of the rental or if it's charged extra per kWh while you trickle charge overnight will likely vary.