Epic Pass just got more Epic

[EPB]

This makes me wonder about the economics of getting paid to be on a pass & the ancillary benefit of having "more people" who will buy stuff, but who arent buying tickets directly from your hill, versus not being on the pass and having fewer people, but not driving away other skiers/riders who would otherwise be paying you for full-freight lift tickets.

That's a long-winded way of saying, if the financial benefit of being on this pass aren't significantly better than not being on a pass, in this scenario where crowding is becoming a big problem, perhaps it's better to have fewer people and NOT be on a pass.

Do you have any idea how non-Vail resorts are compensated for being on the epic pass? I've been curious, but admittedly haven't taken the time to dig in.

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[BenedictGomez]

Do you have any idea how non-Vail resorts are compensated for being on the epic pass? I've been curious, but admittedly haven't taken the time to dig in.

I don't.

It's possible that info could be in the MTN 10k, but my suspicion is it would be intentionally amalgamated rather than broken out due to both competitive reasons & negotiative reasons.

 

[kingslug]

In the last 20 years or so I've seen the access to LCC and BCC go to shit and the crowding turn insane. My first time there they got 48 inches in 48 hours and I went..and fell on my face all day but no probs in or out. Yes the road would close for avalanches and it was an adventure getting out but now its becoming a shit show. I get real time reports from people I know all the time..as they sit in traffic for hours getting up there..they live 10 minutes away.
So now rather than staying in town it looks like the best option is spend a ton more money and stay at the Cliff. I can stay for free in town..but if I can't get up there..whats the point.
It would suck if one day the road is totally jammed with cars and buses and a huge avi takes out a bunch of them. Its happened but not a massive scale. Then the talk of interconnecting and better access will heat up. Its headed in that direction any way..cause it ain't getting better...

 

[BenedictGomez]

they sit in traffic for hours getting up there..they live 10 minutes away.

Was this a one-time thing or something; at it's worst, it doesn't really take "hours" to get from, say, Cottonwood Heights to Solitude/Brighton or Alta/Snowbird, does it?

Then the talk of interconnecting and better access will heat up. Its headed in that direction any way..cause it ain't getting better...

The Eco-extremists unfortunately seem to be winning that battle. The ONE Wasatch website hasn't been updated in over 3 years.

http://onewasatch.com/?page_id=123

 

[jimk]

I’ve gotten pretty familiar with LCC in the last three years with about 8 visits to Cottonwood Heights, and I'm about to get a lot more familiar. Traffic is definitely a serious consideration, esp. on weekend mornings when there’s new snow. Two hour road closures (approx. 6-8AM) for avi work in the canyon are increasingly likely on powder mornings. When there is no new snow the situation is usually fine. Many locals are surprised they haven’t gone to 100% paid parking yet to reduce traffic and force carpooling, but that might put a heavier reliance on the UTA bus system that perhaps doesn’t have the capacity to handle a big ridership surge?? My pie in the sky suggestion is to build an old fashioned, high-capacity cogwheel train through a tunnel in the mountains from base of LCC to a suitable spot between Alta and Snowbird.

This 2017 report has a discussion and photos about what LCC is like for a big storm cycle when the place goes into a full powder panic: http://www.dcski.com/forum/view_message.php?message_id=91448

About multi-resort pass compensation for participating resorts…I don’t know how it works either, but pretty telling when resorts like Snowbasin bounce from MCP to IKON to Epic. There is definitely a significant increase in revenue and skier visits that they receive through these passes that has many resorts eager to participate and jockey for the best financial return. I’m an unabashed ski touron and this whole multi-resort thing has come at the perfect time for me (retired with disposable income).

 

[crazy]

100% paid parking, with some or all of the additional funds generated going to UTA to support more buses, would be an easy way to start the process off. The resorts have been interested in the ONE Wasatch idea of connecting the resorts with lifts. ONE Wasatch solves some small piece of the problem, and frankly why not do it if the resorts are going to pay for it, but there needs to be a bigger solution. Tunnels between BCC and LCC would help the LCC resorts, as the road to BCC is closed less frequently and doesn't see the capacity that the LCC road does. Having a tunnel from Park City to LCC/BCC would also be very helpful.

The idea of a cogwheel train through a tunnel is smart in a lot of ways. I've heard proposals for a gondola, but there are many issues with it, including evac and transport time. The big question is funding. Also, let's say we have a train/gondola - do we still let people drive? As long as its faster or more convenient to drive, people will continue driving, though having a toll or paid parking will help dissuade this. Also, what about the backcountry skiers who want to potentially drive up very early before the train/gondola is running?

Lots of issues to work out. Save Our Canyons, one of the major eco-extremist groups, will have a knee jerk reaction against almost any proposal. Their end goal is for the resorts to shut down and become back country.

 

[thetrailboss]

Was this a one-time thing or something; at it's worst, it doesn't really take "hours" to get from, say, Cottonwood Heights to Solitude/Brighton or Alta/Snowbird, does it?

YES. This happens. More often now. On storm days or when a canyon is "closed" for early morning avalanche work.

 

[thetrailboss]

I’ve gotten pretty familiar with LCC in the last three years with about 8 visits to Cottonwood Heights, and I'm about to get a lot more familiar. Traffic is definitely a serious consideration, esp. on weekend mornings when there’s new snow. Two hour road closures (approx. 6-8AM) for avi work in the canyon are increasingly likely on powder mornings. When there is no new snow the situation is usually fine. Many locals are surprised they haven’t gone to 100% paid parking yet to reduce traffic and force carpooling, but that might put a heavier reliance on the UTA bus system that perhaps doesn’t have the capacity to handle a big ridership surge?? My pie in the sky suggestion is to build an old fashioned, high-capacity cogwheel train through a tunnel in the mountains from base of LCC to a suitable spot between Alta and Snowbird.

This 2017 report has a discussion and photos about what LCC is like for a big storm cycle when the place goes into a full powder panic: http://www.dcski.com/forum/view_message.php?message_id=91448

About multi-resort pass compensation for participating resorts…I don’t know how it works either, but pretty telling when resorts like Snowbasin bounce from MCP to IKON to Epic. There is definitely a significant increase in revenue and skier visits that they receive through these passes that has many resorts eager to participate and jockey for the best financial return. I’m an unabashed ski touron and this whole multi-resort thing has come at the perfect time for me (retired with disposable income).

100% paid parking, with some or all of the additional funds generated going to UTA to support more buses, would be an easy way to start the process off. The resorts have been interested in the ONE Wasatch idea of connecting the resorts with lifts. ONE Wasatch solves some small piece of the problem, and frankly why not do it if the resorts are going to pay for it, but there needs to be a bigger solution. Tunnels between BCC and LCC would help the LCC resorts, as the road to BCC is closed less frequently and doesn't see the capacity that the LCC road does. Having a tunnel from Park City to LCC/BCC would also be very helpful.

The idea of a cogwheel train through a tunnel is smart in a lot of ways. I've heard proposals for a gondola, but there are many issues with it, including evac and transport time. The big question is funding. Also, let's say we have a train/gondola - do we still let people drive? As long as its faster or more convenient to drive, people will continue driving, though having a toll or paid parking will help dissuade this. Also, what about the backcountry skiers who want to potentially drive up very early before the train/gondola is running?

Lots of issues to work out. Save Our Canyons, one of the major eco-extremist groups, will have a knee jerk reaction against almost any proposal. Their end goal is for the resorts to shut down and become back country.

Both make complete sense. However, UTA is a complete shit show. It is basically either a dysfunctional political punching bag for folks or a complete self-serving money grab for others who end up "on the board" and see to it that their own land development projects are benefitted by UTA routes. It is too bad because there IS a complete NEED for better public transit.

As to the railway, that is a truly "Back to the Future" idea because Snowbird's founder Ted Johnson lobbied hard for funding to build a loop railway that ran between BCC and LCC but the amount of $$$ in the 1970's and 1980's was too high. It is astronomical now.

There is limited land at the mouth of each canyon for park and rides. Most lots fill up quickly.

For the meantime, they will continue to do nothing about the deal.

 

[Smellytele]

In the last 20 years or so I've seen the access to LCC and BCC go to shit and the crowding turn insane. My first time there they got 48 inches in 48 hours and I went..and fell on my face all day but no probs in or out. Yes the road would close for avalanches and it was an adventure getting out but now its becoming a shit show. I get real time reports from people I know all the time..as they sit in traffic for hours getting up there..they live 10 minutes away.
So now rather than staying in town it looks like the best option is spend a ton more money and stay at the Cliff. I can stay for free in town..but if I can't get up there..whats the point.
It would suck if one day the road is totally jammed with cars and buses and a huge avi takes out a bunch of them. Its happened but not a massive scale. Then the talk of interconnecting and better access will heat up. Its headed in that direction any way..cause it ain't getting better...

Remove the road and put a train in that everyone has to take...

 

[benski]

100% paid parking, with some or all of the additional funds generated going to UTA to support more buses, would be an easy way to start the process off. The resorts have been interested in the ONE Wasatch idea of connecting the resorts with lifts. ONE Wasatch solves some small piece of the problem, and frankly why not do it if the resorts are going to pay for it, but there needs to be a bigger solution. Tunnels between BCC and LCC would help the LCC resorts, as the road to BCC is closed less frequently and doesn't see the capacity that the LCC road does. Having a tunnel from Park City to LCC/BCC would also be very helpful.

The idea of a cogwheel train through a tunnel is smart in a lot of ways. I've heard proposals for a gondola, but there are many issues with it, including evac and transport time. The big question is funding. Also, let's say we have a train/gondola - do we still let people drive? As long as its faster or more convenient to drive, people will continue driving, though having a toll or paid parking will help dissuade this. Also, what about the backcountry skiers who want to potentially drive up very early before the train/gondola is running?

Lots of issues to work out. Save Our Canyons, one of the major eco-extremist groups, will have a knee jerk reaction against almost any proposal. Their end goal is for the resorts to shut down and become back country.

I like the 100% payed parking plan or the no cars idea. I went to Zermatt last year and thought the lack of cars in the village was nice. I think railway would be a lot more expensive. The Swiss mountain railways are also not very fast and not compatible with the main rail network. A gondola would be smarter, since there is no wait time, it fits with the ski area motif, and has less impact. You can move up to 5000p/h according to Dopplmeyr.

 

[Smellytele]

I like the 100% payed parking plan or the no cars idea. I went to Zermatt last year and thought the lack of cars in the village was nice. I think railway would be a lot more expensive. The Swiss mountain railways are also not very fast and not compatible with the main rail network. A gondola would be smarter, since there is no wait time, it fits with the ski area motif, and has less impact. You can move up to 5000p/h according to Dopplmeyr.

Have the train like a tram. 2 tracks with trains always moving in the opposite direction.

 

[BenedictGomez]

YES. This happens. More often now. On storm days or when a canyon is "closed" for early morning avalanche work.

Okay, but unless I'm misunderstanding, this is different.

The road itself is "closed", but that's different than sitting in traffic for "hours" to get there. Once you see the sign at the bottom that the canyon is closed, you can turn around on Wasatch Blvd. & either bag the day & go home or come back at lunchtime, right?

Whereas I-70 in Colorado, people literally report sitting in traffic jams a few hours with the road actually open.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Have the train like a tram. 2 tracks with trains always moving in the opposite direction.

This sounds like a great idea.

You could probably run 3 electric trolleys per track if needed, but how do you get this past the Eco-nuts?

That's the problem.

 

[abc]

Okay, but unless I'm misunderstanding, this is different.

The road itself is "closed", but that's different than sitting in traffic for "hours" to get there. Once you see the sign at the bottom that the canyon is closed, you can turn around on Wasatch Blvd. & either bag the day & go home or come back at lunchtime, right?

Whereas I-70 in Colorado, people literally report sitting in traffic jams a few hours with the road actually open.

No, they sit in traffic AFTER the road re-opened.

The point, which you're missing, is the delay in opening the road means twice as much traffic is trying to jam into the canyon in half the time!

I think 2 hrs qualify as "hourS"?

Alternatively, people had opted to sit at the mouth of the canyon AWAITING for the road to open. Because they know if they're not the first to go up the canyon, they would sit IN TRAFFIC for just as long, if not longer.

Yes, I've been there. it went like a quarter mile in 1/2 hr. I ended up turning around and went to Park City! I still got a decent amount of skiing in there, but missed the fresh powder. People from the same hotel I was in, got up to the canyon 2 hrs after my ski hit the snow.

 

[snoseek]

Love the idea of a train. Would need to run 24 hours though. I get off work around 11pm. People also come up very early for work. Parking logistics would need major thought also.

 

[benski]

This sounds like a great idea.

You could probably run 3 electric trolleys per track if needed, but how do you get this past the Eco-nuts?

That's the problem.

You get rid of the road. Convert the base areas to car free villages. Its a big project before, but such resorts exist, most notable Zermatt. Cars the the absolute worst for the environment.

 

[benski]

Also trains can be impacted by snow, I was delayed by over an hour traveling between ski areas by train in Switzerland during a storm.

 

[Smellytele]

Also trains can be impacted by snow, I was delayed by over an hour traveling between ski areas by train in Switzerland during a storm.

Cable car trains. So on tracks but over head cables moving them. Or even better-monorails


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[kingslug]

My friend takes pictures of the mess he sits in..posts it on fb all the time..this particular storm system was rough

 

[BenedictGomez]

No, they sit in traffic AFTER the road re-opened. The point, which you're missing, is the delay in opening the road means twice as much traffic is trying to jam into the canyon in half the time!

How many days per season do these avalanche road closures occur, is it really a big problem that's routine, or is it only a big problem if it happens to happen to you one of the 8 days per 208 day ski season?

You get rid of the road. Convert the base areas to car free villages. Its a big project before, but such resorts exist, most notable Zermatt.

That's a bridge too far for me in terms of PITA expense + actual expense. Now in addition to the considerable construction costs, you're also talking about mandatory operating 365 days per year, almost 24 hours a day (probably 19'ish hours) with numerous FTE and benefits, retirement etc... That's not happening.