KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
crested butte is also partnered with epic. and stevens pass wa, which i would bet money is a shitshow.
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Epic Pass just got more Epic
- Thread starter gmcunni
- Start date
crested butte is also partnered with epic. and stevens pass wa, which i would bet money is a shitshow.
They're not partners...Vail bought them.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Doesn't shock me. I'd suspect the vast majority of IKON passholders are on the pass that blocks out holidays.
Thus, ironically, I wouldn't expect holiday IKON crowding, as the economics of IKON are more sensible on the cheaper pass, as 5 days per mountain is enough for most vacationers, and there's only a handful of dates blocked. The pricier pass makes no sense for most skiers, with the exception of some CA, CO, and UT locals, etc.
Well they now added info to the FAQ section on the Ikon 19/20 announcement page that lists the resorts included with each pass and how many days. Full 7 (or 5) even at JH.
There goes the theory they would adjust for next year.
There goes the theory they would adjust for next year.
Zand
Well-known member
They could always change things but I'd hope they wouldnt be low enough to make negative changes.
skitheeast45
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Ikon just wants to start selling the passes at the beginning of March and did a rough check with all of the partners to make sure the existing deals were working out well. Like last year, they will continue to tinker with the destinations and days over the course of the offseason.
I was at Stratton for MLK/President's Day and Tremblant over New Year's. For Stratton, MLK had shorter lines than President's Day and they were both crazy long. However, not the longest I have seen in my 100+ times skiing there even though the base lodge was possibly the most crowded(I attribute this to Snow Bowl Express spreading people out). I haven't been to Tremblant quite enough times to adequately judge what ridiculously busy meant, but it was an absolute mess in terms of lines when I was there and employees were saying it was the most crowded they had ever seen it. A-Basin has mentioned that lift lines are not their choking point, rather parking is, so your assessment makes sense. Winter Park and Copper (especially) are both on pace for record years in terms of skier visits, so maybe you are skiing the mountain well or "crowded" for them is different than "crowded" for you.
The difference between Les Otten and Robert Katz is that Otten was able to boost revenue but the profits never kept up with the mounting debt while Katz has boosted revenue and profits with manageable debt. As of October 2018, Vail had a debt to equity ratio of 1.15, which puts it in the 39th percentile for large companies (almost middle of the pack). Companies with D/E ratios below 1.5 are generally considered solid.
The part that I do believe is unsustainable is partnership mountains. Either A) Ikon or Epic is paying a non-Vail/Alterra mountain (ie Telluride or Jackson Hole) too much per ski day ($70? $80?) where they will lose more revenue from the partnership than they would gain otherwise (ie they will pay maybe $150k to the resort but only gain $130k more in additional revenue as a result of the partnership), or B) The partner mountains are getting paid too little or nothing at all per skier day and are losing more revenue in potential ticket/pass sales without the partnership than they are gaining in total revenue from the partnership (ie Snowbasin or Sugarbush get only $20 per skier day plus an average of $30 in ancillary spending from 100k Epic/Ikon skiers for $5m in revenue while 50k of those skiers would have purchased passes directly from the mountain anyway for $80 per skier day plus the same $30 in ancillary spending for $5.5m in revenue). Before Vail purchased Triple Peaks, they had recently started a partnership for the Epic Pass similar to what Telluride has but both sides realized it made more sense for Triple Peaks to sell.
A pass that I think could work in the future for independent mountains is something like the Mountain Collective of Max Pass where no one resort conglomerate is the anchor, meaning money can be split more easily. Alternatively, a season pass at one mountain that comes with a couple 2 days or so at a few other mountains could work (this is the Power Pass). For example, the Arizona Snowbowl season pass comes with 3 days at Copper, Marmot, and a number of other mountains. If that was my home mountain/pass, I would spend a week at one of those mountains for a ski trip because I get a few days free but would still have to buy a few days worth of lift tickets. Basically gives me a discount but still gives the mountains additional revenue.
I was at Stratton for MLK/President's Day and Tremblant over New Year's. For Stratton, MLK had shorter lines than President's Day and they were both crazy long. However, not the longest I have seen in my 100+ times skiing there even though the base lodge was possibly the most crowded(I attribute this to Snow Bowl Express spreading people out). I haven't been to Tremblant quite enough times to adequately judge what ridiculously busy meant, but it was an absolute mess in terms of lines when I was there and employees were saying it was the most crowded they had ever seen it. A-Basin has mentioned that lift lines are not their choking point, rather parking is, so your assessment makes sense. Winter Park and Copper (especially) are both on pace for record years in terms of skier visits, so maybe you are skiing the mountain well or "crowded" for them is different than "crowded" for you.
The difference between Les Otten and Robert Katz is that Otten was able to boost revenue but the profits never kept up with the mounting debt while Katz has boosted revenue and profits with manageable debt. As of October 2018, Vail had a debt to equity ratio of 1.15, which puts it in the 39th percentile for large companies (almost middle of the pack). Companies with D/E ratios below 1.5 are generally considered solid.
The part that I do believe is unsustainable is partnership mountains. Either A) Ikon or Epic is paying a non-Vail/Alterra mountain (ie Telluride or Jackson Hole) too much per ski day ($70? $80?) where they will lose more revenue from the partnership than they would gain otherwise (ie they will pay maybe $150k to the resort but only gain $130k more in additional revenue as a result of the partnership), or B) The partner mountains are getting paid too little or nothing at all per skier day and are losing more revenue in potential ticket/pass sales without the partnership than they are gaining in total revenue from the partnership (ie Snowbasin or Sugarbush get only $20 per skier day plus an average of $30 in ancillary spending from 100k Epic/Ikon skiers for $5m in revenue while 50k of those skiers would have purchased passes directly from the mountain anyway for $80 per skier day plus the same $30 in ancillary spending for $5.5m in revenue). Before Vail purchased Triple Peaks, they had recently started a partnership for the Epic Pass similar to what Telluride has but both sides realized it made more sense for Triple Peaks to sell.
A pass that I think could work in the future for independent mountains is something like the Mountain Collective of Max Pass where no one resort conglomerate is the anchor, meaning money can be split more easily. Alternatively, a season pass at one mountain that comes with a couple 2 days or so at a few other mountains could work (this is the Power Pass). For example, the Arizona Snowbowl season pass comes with 3 days at Copper, Marmot, and a number of other mountains. If that was my home mountain/pass, I would spend a week at one of those mountains for a ski trip because I get a few days free but would still have to buy a few days worth of lift tickets. Basically gives me a discount but still gives the mountains additional revenue.
abc
Well-known member
Debate as much as you like. Don’t buy Ikon because some unnamed internet dude pin some pictures on the web. It’ll be even shorter lift line for me!
Ive put in 20+ days in various Ikon mountains. I didn’t see anything like in the picture. But to keep proper perspective, Jackson at opening had always shocked me with their lines. I’ve gone to Jackson quite a few times BEFORE Ikon was a “thing”. That said, I had pretty good luch with snow in Jackson. So the lines may have something to do with that!
Ive put in 20+ days in various Ikon mountains. I didn’t see anything like in the picture. But to keep proper perspective, Jackson at opening had always shocked me with their lines. I’ve gone to Jackson quite a few times BEFORE Ikon was a “thing”. That said, I had pretty good luch with snow in Jackson. So the lines may have something to do with that!
Zermatt
Active member
Not once they start selling passes. Any negative changes would result in lawsuits.
Tinker with destinations by possibly adding someone else, sure. Tinkering with number of days by offering less days than already stated at some resorts, not a chance once it goes on sale. You can't advertise as one thing and then take things away once you start selling them. Last year the only tinkering they did with days was adding some (i.e. allowing 7 at each of SR, SL, Loon instead of 7 combined as originally announced).
drjeff
Well-known member
Bingo.... Short of a resort listed on the pass closing, taking anything away from what is listed at the start of sales is just asking for a major problem (even if it only affects a few people), whereas adding extras on top of an already specified list of benefits will 99.99% of the time never create a problem
KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
I would never ski those ikon places in the east on a holiday. That is asking for trouble. Tremblant on a holiday weekend is a unique hell. Magic, Burke, Bolton, Platty, etc are where you ski the east on a holiday.
And BG, I have the base level pass, I’ve just visited the resorts out west that aren’t blacked out for holidays
skitheeast45
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I love Magic and have skied there before when they have reached their lift ticket cap... it can be worse than any other mountain! Last year I skied Magic when only Red was operating (as Black was down as usual) when they reached peak and stopped selling day passes and they had a 45 min wait for the lift. Perhaps the opening of the Green Chair has helped with this problem, as I have never been there at peak this season. If I wanted to avoid the crowds skiing a normal weekend, I would go to one of the mountains you mentioned. If I wanted to avoid the crowds skiing a holiday weekend, I wouldn't go skiing.
Zand
Well-known member
Didn't wait in a single line at Sunday River on President's day.
NYDB
Well-known member
Re: Magic - Once the new black is running there will be no more lines. I actually think they could run Black (as a quad) and green (and skip red) and be good on a holiday weekend in the future.
skitheeast45
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That is true. However, I think I read that they will be increasing their daily ticket sales cap once the Black 2.0 opens next year, so maybe not as big of an impact as it would otherwise be. Still, that lift will be a game changer for the mountain.
Well....Telluride is nowhere near a major city. LCC is in the SLC metro area. Telluride is a destination area.
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nycskier
Member
Unfortunately the free spring skiing at most Ikon resorts doesnt start until April 8th so my gamble that I could use it in March turned up snake eyes! If it was valid from 3/5 when they go on sale I probably could have put 4 to 10 days on the pass before next season even began.
machski
Well-known member
And let me just say, it's not just LCC in SLC. BCC is pretty bad too on the weekend.
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BenedictGomez
Well-known member
And with both Solitude & Brighton now on the pass, I assume this is solely the IKON effect?
I recall many posters on here loving Brighton & Solitude partially because of how "empty" they always are.
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