Expert Skier/Rider?

[trailertrash]

After reading the "bumps make the man" thread it got me thinking. Can a skier/rider really be considered an expert if they can't make it down the park gracefully? (I can not, nor can I make it down a bump run gracefully, I am no expert) I say you are not truly an expert if you can't. If you look at all the required skills to be an expert why shouldn't the park/pipe be required? It is just as valid as a bump run. Both are skills. I am not saying that folks who do well in the park/pipe are experts. I am saying to be an expert you need to master all aspects and not just the ones you deem valid. What do you think?

 

[Zand]

I don't think park/pipe should count. It's a whole different kind of skiing. to master an expert trail, you'll probably need to ski bumps to get down it, but you won't be going through a 500 foot halfpipe.

 

[trailertrash]

I don't think park/pipe should count. It's a whole different kind of skiing. to master an expert trail, you'll probably need to ski bumps to get down it, but you won't be going through a 500 foot halfpipe.

yeah but you could skid down either one. carving is different from tree skiing, are either less valid? im not saying you have to be a superhero in the park, im just saying you should be able to make down with some grace.

 

[NYDrew]

Park is not needed to be an expert.
To master the park says nothing about your actual skiing ability.
To be an expert skiier, however, does mean that you do have the necessary skills to master a park if you wanted to.

 

[riverc0il]

i think this was addressed in the other thread already and i think this is redundent. like bumps, an expert skier should be able to take up the park if they so desired and be proficient at things. but like bumps, maybe someone could do it but they just don't appreciate that part of the mountain, just like JD isn't much for bumps, but i bet he could rip them up if he wanted.

also, so so so much of the park stuff is style and acrobatics. style and acrobatics are a part of skiing, but are not skiing skills needed elsewhere on the mountain. learning to carve, learning to bump, learning the trees, learning to take a huck, etc... these are all skills that help an all mountain skier in all areas of their performance. what does doing an iron cross 360 help with my skill set other than style?

so i don't think it is relevent because experts could do the park if they really wanted to and further, the skill set doesn't really help the technical aspects of skiing (not saying park rats aren't good skiers but rather great skiing doesn't come from hitting the park).

 

[trailertrash]

skiing?

its as if some of you have this predetermined idea of what skiing is and since you dont think skiing in the park fits in that picture you shouldnt have to do it to be an expert. say, hypothetically there was a test to be an expert. in the test at any generic mtn you could be put at the top of any trail/park/pipe/glade/bump run... at the mtn. you think its ok to say, sorry mr examiner i dont like this (pick your type) of skiing so i dont think i should be tested on it?

 

[dmc]

After reading the "bumps make the man" thread it got me thinking. Can a skier/rider really be considered an expert if they can't make it down the park gracefully? (I can not, nor can I make it down a bump run gracefully, I am no expert) I say you are not truly an expert if you can't. If you look at all the required skills to be an expert why shouldn't the park/pipe be required? It is just as valid as a bump run. Both are skills. I am not saying that folks who do well in the park/pipe are experts. I am saying to be an expert you need to master all aspects and not just the ones you deem valid. What do you think?

I think it's a load of hooooie...
Dude... Parks werent even invented when I started riding.. I'm 42 years old - I'm not going to risk metal rails and fun boxes...

So I'm not an expert in your book... I can deal with that... I hate the park - it's full of asshats..
But I will throw a 180 off the side of the top of the Left Gully at Tuckermans on a 45 degree slope..

So I guess... The world is my park...

 

[riverc0il]

dude, i throw a mean spread eagle. that has gotta be worth something, right?! i know that will get me some reps and cred in the pahk!

trailertrash, what skills can you apply from the park to bumps and trees and steeps and chutes? c'mon man, i respect you guys throwing down stuff in the park, but aside from having good balance and acrobatic skills, i don't see it. i don't see what skills you are learning in the park that make you great skiers. you are good at a very very narrow series of balancing acts and acrobatic manuvers. i respect what it takes to do a park right and with style, but i do not see how that contributes to great skiing technique.

don't say we have got it wrong, prove it. it's kinda like these guys doing 150 foot hucks. impressive!!! but it doesn't mean they can ski really good (though they probably can!). parks are an interesting development in the ski world, i don't see skiing fundamentals (read: turning) coming out of the park.

 

[Marc]

Meh, I view a park as different from bumps because groomers make parks.

Skiers make bumps. The ones that count anyway. And they make them by skiing, and not with shovels, rakes, and a diesel powered hydraulic driven tracked snow plow.

A skier who motors down a 35 degree zipper line but can't (or won't) land a 360 over a 35 foot gap is still an expert in my book.

 

[JD]

I see the park as a controled enviornment to get used to being in the air and developing a scense of awareness while in the air. Being able to judge speed coming into a lip can be crucial. Being able to stay loose in the air can save your bootie. I recomend on these spring days, when the snow just goes to slop, head over to the park and huck your meat. Rails? Nah. That's urban to me. I repect the obvious skill and Ballz involved in big rails, but I'm too old to lear that. The airs are not a big deal. They are easy to learn, and require very little tech., just stay forward, look for the landing, stay calm. And a nice smooth run thru the park, even if you hit all straight airs, is a fun and respectable thing.



On a side note, any budding "Freeride" (I hate that word) MTBers, the park at the hill is the safest place to go big for the first time. And if you ski, the body position is almost identical, and the skills you learn will easily translate to your biking.

 

[trailertrash]

trailertrash, what skills can you apply from the park to bumps and trees and steeps and chutes? c'mon man, i respect you guys throwing down stuff in the park, but aside from having good balance and acrobatic skills, i don't see it. i don't see what skills you are learning in the park that make you great skiers. you are good at a very very narrow series of balancing acts and acrobatic manuvers. i respect what it takes to do a park right and with style, but i do not see how that contributes to great skiing technique.

i must not be explaining myself clearly, i will try again. first off, i dont ride in the park, im a hardboot snowboarder. i think what we differ on is what is "skiing technique". in my book anything you can do on skiis qualifies as technique, i dont limit it to what is done on a normal trail. i guess i hold the term "expert" to higher standards. to me to be an expert should master ALL aspects of skiing/riding and being in the park/pipe is one of them. saying that the park wasnt invented when you started riding is irrelevant. if some new type of skiing/riding is developed next year and an someone considered an expert now doesnt master it are they still an expert in my book? nope.

 

[dmc]

saying that the park wasnt invented when you started riding is irrelevant. if some new type of skiing/riding is developed next year and an someone considered an expert now doesnt master it are they still an expert in my book? nope.

Now I totally dissagee with you.. I was eluding to the fact that I was an expert on a snowboard before parks existed.. Are Olympic skiers good park skiers? Can Olympic park riders run gates? doesn't matter - they are still awesome...

I hear what your saying but I can't connect the dots too well.. I just think our standards are different - that's all..

To me -ability levels only matters when terrain dictates it...

 

[dmc]

AND - I'm not going to learn something new unless it interests me... I like what i do...

 

[JD]

Anything you can do on skis? What about skating. What about climbing. What about all the little techs that go into layering, keeping warm, but dry on the way up. Deskinning w/o taking your skis off. Navagation. Self rescue.

What I see is an activity, skiing, that has become so diversified, that it has become alpine, tele, and snowboarding. And within those clasifications you have BC/off piste, racing, which I think is the skill set most intermediates desire, being able to ski groomed surfaces fast and in control, turing properly. Bumps, aeiral, and park pipe. As well as Skate skiing, classic skiing. Even BC snowboarding which presents it's own challenges. Split board? Approach skis? Snow showes?

Each of these is definitive enough in my mind to almost be different activities, and therefore should be judge independently of eachother.

I am a hack in the bumps.
I can rip groomers.
I can rip pow, and tight woods.
I am an intermediate park rider.
I suck at the pipe, but can ride it and get out on a few hits.
I can alpine, tele, can't skate, never boarded.
I can tour efficiently. I stay dry, warm, fueled, self reliant, and make good decisions so far. I have taken great skiiers out to tour for their first time and had nightmare experiences. They are beginners in that situation, desending is way less then half of the trip in this situation.

In some repects I am an "expert" by East Coast standards. In others I am a hack.

But I do have a good time, and that's what counts.

 

[dmc]

Good points... It's a "Pandora's Box"

Anything you can do on skis? What about skating. What about climbing. What about all the little techs that go into layering, keeping warm, but dry on the way up. Deskinning w/o taking your skis off. Navagation. Self rescue.

What I see is an activity, skiing, that has become so diversified, that it has become alpine, tele, and snowboarding. And within those clasifications you have BC/off piste, racing, which I think is the skill set most intermediates desire, being able to ski groomed surfaces fast and in control, turing properly. Bumps, aeiral, and park pipe. As well as Skate skiing, classic skiing. Even BC snowboarding which presents it's own challenges. Split board? Approach skis? Snow showes?

Each of these is definitive enough in my mind to almost be different activities, and therefore should be judge independently of eachother.

I am a hack in the bumps.
I can rip groomers.
I can rip pow, and tight woods.
I am an intermediate park rider.
I suck at the pipe, but can ride it and get out on a few hits.
I can alpine, tele, can't skate, never boarded.
I can tour efficiently. I stay dry, warm, fueled, self reliant, and make good decisions so far. I have taken great skiiers out to tour for their first time and had nightmare experiences. They are beginners in that situation, desending is way less then half of the trip in this situation.

In some repects I am an "expert" by East Coast standards. In others I am a hack.

But I do have a good time, and that's what counts.

 

[awf170]

Deskinning w/o taking your skis off.

Now that is a talent. I tried once and almost ended up on my back.

 

[meat]

you are an expert if you ware a full camo outfit and sit on top of the run-ins to park jumps, not actually going off the jumps but just sitting there in the way. I really look up to those guys.

 

[RIDEr]

Ok, I can see this thread in two different theories...

1) Being a PSIA Level 3 requires you to be "EXPERT" in the park, trees, trails, etc and without that skill you don't qualify.... maybe trailertrash's point.

2) Skiing other parts of the mountain and having qualifications of what DMC, Meat, Riv mentioned earlier still earns you the "EXPERT" qualification and if somebody doesn't want to be in the park either because they don't see the enjoyment shouldn't take away their level at other portions of the mountain.

Bottom line, the mountain offers many different ways of being an expert and either having or not having the "EXPERT" capabilities of the PARK shouldn't clasify you either way.

 

[meat]

yeah I said in the thread about bumps making you the man that park should be a part of being an "all-around" expert or at least being able to take some air. I wonder what it takes to be an expert park skier today in psia 3, because expert park skiers have really progressed over the last several years as have skiers in general. the thing is with park nowadays is that things are getting out of control, jumps are getting monsterous compared to a few years back. I was into park for a few years back after johnny mosely threw his 360 mute grab back in 98'. about 5 years back I probably would have called my self an advanced park skier for back then, I would always try to take a few park runs a day and sometimes more. I wasn't throwin switch 1260 muffin rolls or anything, I was doing 3s, 180s and sliding some flat rails over the main park features, and the jumps rarely exceed 20-30 feet. nowadays tons of kids are doing much crazier tricks and I wouldn't consider what I was doing then as being advanced compared to what is going on the parks all over the world today. now most of the main parks have huge 60-80 foot features, even at Jay.
as I have grown older/wiser approaching my late 20s, and two concusions later, i've learned that the park is rad, but I have nothing to prove in trying to reck my self hurling my carcass off these beasts, i'd rather be skiing lines anyway. now some of the kiddie parks are the size of the old main parks, but I just don't have the desire to hit them except for when I just happen to run out on to the kiddie park under the flyer sometimes. i'll never go out of my way for them anymore, I guess it took away from actual skiing and I got sick of all the rats hanging around, I'd rather throw my meat off a cliff and into 4 feet of pow anyway!

 

[NYDrew]

Ok, I can see this thread in two different theories...

1) Being a PSIA Level 3 requires you to be "EXPERT" in the park, trees, trails, etc and without that skill you don't qualify.... maybe trailertrash's point.

2) Skiing other parts of the mountain and having qualifications of what DMC, Meat, Riv mentioned earlier still earns you the "EXPERT" qualification and if somebody doesn't want to be in the park either because they don't see the enjoyment shouldn't take away their level at other portions of the mountain.

Bottom line, the mountain offers many different ways of being an expert and either having or not having the "EXPERT" capabilities of the PARK shouldn't clasify you either way.

i do not believe PSIA A-3 requires any park skiing. S-3 does require a limited amount.