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From KZone: Guerilla Trailblazers Arrested
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AdironRider
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Ok so riddle me this...
We all use ski trails cut by the mtns themselves that are on state land and above 3000 feet at some point in our skiing career, no? So these guys go ahead and do it themselves illegally, but in reality its no different than the legal trails cut, so whats the real big issue here. Sure it was illegal, and added to the total number of trees downed above 3000 feet, but I just find it funny how if two guys do it on their own it means they should be banished to hell, when (lets just use Whiteface and its Tree Island Pod expansion as an example) another mtn can go and do the same thing on a much larger scale and its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sure one was illegal and the other wasnt, but the environmental impact is for the most part the same.
We all use ski trails cut by the mtns themselves that are on state land and above 3000 feet at some point in our skiing career, no? So these guys go ahead and do it themselves illegally, but in reality its no different than the legal trails cut, so whats the real big issue here. Sure it was illegal, and added to the total number of trees downed above 3000 feet, but I just find it funny how if two guys do it on their own it means they should be banished to hell, when (lets just use Whiteface and its Tree Island Pod expansion as an example) another mtn can go and do the same thing on a much larger scale and its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sure one was illegal and the other wasnt, but the environmental impact is for the most part the same.
riverc0il
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AdironRider, by that reasoning, any one should be able to climb up any mountain and hack down as many tress as they want, no? You could use the same reasoning that since we all drive on roads and have houses where trees were chopped down once upon a time then we should be able to go any where chopping down any amount of trees we want.
AdironRider
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When taken to extremes I see what your saying, but I just find it pretty funny how vastly different the public opinion of these guys actions is when compared to vastly more damaging effects undertaken by ski areas themselves. My point wasnt really to say that everyone should be able to do it, but rather aimed at the ramifications of their actions. I will admit that this type of behavior shouldnt be condoned (for the exact reasons you say - the whole if he can do it, screw it I will as well mentality), but it just seems ironic how a ski area can level hundreds of acres of high elevation terrain and its seen as a godsend, when these guys cut a 20 foot path and its the end of Big Jay as we know it. Not condoning the actions outright, but it seemed like an interesting discussion question.
kbroderick
Active member
I think if Jay Peak Resort had done the same thing these guys did--cut a ridiculous fall line swath on state property on Big Jay without any permitting--many of us would think it was just as wrong. Quite frankly, I see a huge difference between thought-out and permitted expansion versus stupid and unpermitted expansion.
That's not to say that permitted automatically means thought out, but at least there's hope that somewhere in the planning and permitting process some brainpower will be applied.
AdironRider
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I agree as well, and my points arent made to be taken as a literal comparison. I understand the planning and permits needed for a resort to undertake an expansion, but in reality its still a destruction of alpine wilderness areas. Thats the point Im trying to make, despite the obvious and already mentioned differences between the two scenarios.
millerm277
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Certainly true, but typically in order to make the legal cuts, they have to go through many steps to minimize that impact, and on legal cuts, they also have to make sure that what they're doing isn't going to wind up eroding away, like this has a good chance of doing.
snowman
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I do have to agree somewhat with the crew laughing at oil and his pretentious ways and calls of blasphemy. "No, I won't ski the illegally cut trail" yada yada yada. Yet he skis every other back country ski trail, narrow or wide, and goes out skiing when there's 1 inch of snow on the ground most likely damaging territory inhabited by protected wildflowers. Last I checked, spruce trees aren't in short supply.
highpeaksdrifter
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A friend emailed me this. I'm not sure if its already in this thread and I didn't feel like going through the whole thing. These pics are pretty dramatic. Say what you want about those guys, but they sure where ambitious.
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com:80/legacy/slideshows/081007jay/index.html
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com:80/legacy/slideshows/081007jay/index.html
Dayum!
That is certainly a little more than pruning a favorite line. As much as I don't condone what they did, I'm sure if I saw it while out on Big Jay and there was fresh to be had, I wouldn't be able to resist it.
JD
New member
After viewing that again, I have to say they did a nice job. Stacked logs to fill in uneven terrain. I would say that cutting the stumps right to the ground is really important. If we learn anything from this, it's that you should cut the stumps TO THE GROUND.
Looks like fun. I really have a hard time getting too upset when I drive past the new golf course up at spruce when I go to the notch. From the Tee boxes you can look at beech trees with YEARS of scarring from bears. HUNDREDS of acers got cleared so a bunch of rich A$$HOLES can play golf out behind their million dollar condo. Let's keep this in perspective when we think about all the BS development going on in sensative areas around the state. This is less then a drop in the bucket over what? Land that has allready been clearcut twice. Not like it's old growth.
rant off.
Looks like fun. I really have a hard time getting too upset when I drive past the new golf course up at spruce when I go to the notch. From the Tee boxes you can look at beech trees with YEARS of scarring from bears. HUNDREDS of acers got cleared so a bunch of rich A$$HOLES can play golf out behind their million dollar condo. Let's keep this in perspective when we think about all the BS development going on in sensative areas around the state. This is less then a drop in the bucket over what? Land that has allready been clearcut twice. Not like it's old growth.
rant off.
After viewing that again, I have to say they did a nice job. Stacked logs to fill in uneven terrain. I would say that cutting the stumps right to the ground is really important. If we learn anything from this, it's that you should cut the stumps TO THE GROUND.
Looks like fun. I really have a hard time getting too upset when I drive past the new golf course up at spruce when I go to the notch. From the Tee boxes you can look at beech trees with YEARS of scarring from bears. HUNDREDS of acers got cleared so a bunch of rich A$$HOLES can play golf out behind their million dollar condo. Let's keep this in perspective when we think about all the BS development going on in sensative areas around the state. This is less then a drop in the bucket over what? Land that has allready been clearcut twice. Not like it's old growth.
rant off.
very good point
highpeaksdrifter
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I don't play golf and I'm not rich, but why do people who do and are automatically have to be assholes? I know people who love golf and have worked dam hard to get the financial success they earned and they are good people.
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I'm glad you said it... :roll: I never understand why those that are successful in life financially are looked negatively upon. Jealousy, I suppose. Newsflash! There are assholes in every age, race and socioeconomic group.
BTW, I don't regularly golf, but I do maybe once or twice a year and that's why I suck at it. It is rather expensive and you need to be pretty well off to play often, but I can totally see the appeal.
Yeah...besides, using that logic we would have to believe that alot of snowboarders play golf.
Because any skier worth his/her salt knows that all snowboarders are assholes...NOT!
I'm beginning to believe that stereotyping is genetic. It seems to be hardwired into the human brain.
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Your remarks about golf are way off. The medium income of a skier versus a golfer is much higher. I am an advid golfer. There are a lot of initiatives to get intercity kids involved with gof. I dont really here anything about skiing.
You can get a decent set of clubs for 500 buck and I know a lot of golf courses that are less than 20 bucks to play. Good challenging courses.
You can't spend less than 50 bucks for any half way decent hill to ski. Put together gear for less than 500 buck is even harder.
Your remarks are like shit spewing forth from an anus.
anus, mouth, no difference.
settle down, don't get your golf knickers in a bunch pal. I never made one comment about the socio econmic differences between skiers and golfers.
JD's arguement is actually quite sound in that regard though when talking about that particular golf course. While yes, as a whole, the entry costs for golf are lower and it is more accessible to lower income people than skiing, there are exceptions. If you've seen it, they completely TRASHED a pristine valley and mountain side so that not the rich, but the MEGA FILTHY RICH, can play golf. Whatever inner city programs you speak of, which I think are great, certainly aren't welcome at that track.
I certainly don't condone what these people did at Jay. You want to go in the woods and carve out a couple a shots by pruning some lower branches and saplings with a hack saw, fine by me, in many instances that actually helps the forest, however what they did was certainly wrong. BUT, if you compare what these people did in comparison to what Stowe did in putting in that golf course, in terms of degradation to the environment, they aren't in the same league. That's JD's point and I agree with him completely.
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