Guns

[tjf67]

How many sno guns can your hill run.

Whiteface can run 110 at a time. They put the expansion on a seperate compressor but we have water problems up here. We have to leave some for the fish.

It is something to see a line of 20 30 guns going at once though.

 

[Greg]

Sundown can run 100 at once. Pretty impressive for a hill its size.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Sundown can run 100 at once. Pretty impressive for a hill its size.

100 is an impressive number. However, pumping water up a maximum vert of 625 feet is a lot easier than 2000+ feet. This is one of the major limiting factors in the number of guns that can be running on a mtn. It would be interesting to see the actual energy use numbers for pumping water up hill.

 

[Chris Sullivan]

From the NEK, is right that elevation limits the amount of guns that can be run at one time. Many ski areas that lift water more than 1000-1500 feet, use booster pumps positioned on the hill in order to keep the pressure up. I think as a general rule most snow-makers would like to see an average hill pressure of about 300lbs. The amount of water coming out of each gun has a lot to do with it as well. Here at Sundown, there is no point in trying to put 60gpm to our snow guns, because we don’t get the temperatures to turn that kind of output into acceptable snow. The majority of our snow is made at temperatures, that, places up north would not even bother with. When we are trying to get open we start up at 28wet bulb. Our HKD’s are set to operate at 19gpm under standard load and can be brought up to 35, 45, 60,gpm if the temperatures allow. Our SMI’s, operate at 30gpm and can be brought up as high as 120gpm. I have only maxed out our SMI’s a handful of times in the past ten years. The colder and drier it is, the more water we can put to individual guns, consequently dropping the number of guns running, while still converting the same amount of water to snow. This also allows us to reduce the demand for air which is the more costly side of snow-making.
As far as the amount of energy used to push water up hill, it depends on what type of equipment you are using to push the water as well as friction loss in the system. Here we use 600hp drawing 760 amps. We push 2000gpm currently and hope to upgrade soon.
We test new equipment here every year and the efficacy keeps getting better all the time.
Currently we are testing nESSY a product from Bachler of Switzerland. It uses 5cfm and it actually works and makes good snow. I was very skeptical prior to testing.
For us it is more advantageous to get more guns up and running fast with limited water output in order to capitalize on the short windows of opportunity and marginal temperatures we see. 100 guns in 25 minutes is where we are at right now.
What works here may not work elsewhere. Each area is different.

 

[Chris Sullivan]

Snow-making efficiency is getting better not my spelling.

 

[dmc]

Snow-making efficiency is getting better not my spelling.

What you lack in spelling... You made up for in content...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I've seen Blue mountain run almost 200 snowguns at once..I think they have about 500 total..

 

[Greg]

From the NEK, is right that elevation limits the amount of guns that can be run at one time. Many ski areas that lift water more than 1000-1500 feet, use booster pumps positioned on the hill in order to keep the pressure up. I think as a general rule most snow-makers would like to see an average hill pressure of about 300lbs. The amount of water coming out of each gun has a lot to do with it as well. Here at Sundown, there is no point in trying to put 60gpm to our snow guns, because we don’t get the temperatures to turn that kind of output into acceptable snow. The majority of our snow is made at temperatures, that, places up north would not even bother with. When we are trying to get open we start up at 28wet bulb. Our HKD’s are set to operate at 19gpm under standard load and can be brought up to 35, 45, 60,gpm if the temperatures allow. Our SMI’s, operate at 30gpm and can be brought up as high as 120gpm. I have only maxed out our SMI’s a handful of times in the past ten years. The colder and drier it is, the more water we can put to individual guns, consequently dropping the number of guns running, while still converting the same amount of water to snow. This also allows us to reduce the demand for air which is the more costly side of snow-making.
As far as the amount of energy used to push water up hill, it depends on what type of equipment you are using to push the water as well as friction loss in the system. Here we use 600hp drawing 760 amps. We push 2000gpm currently and hope to upgrade soon.
We test new equipment here every year and the efficacy keeps getting better all the time.
Currently we are testing nESSY a product from Bachler of Switzerland. It uses 5cfm and it actually works and makes good snow. I was very skeptical prior to testing.
For us it is more advantageous to get more guns up and running fast with limited water output in order to capitalize on the short windows of opportunity and marginal temperatures we see. 100 guns in 25 minutes is where we are at right now.
What works here may not work elsewhere. Each area is different.

Great post and interesting point about how the snow making approach at each mountain is unique.

 

[Phildozer]

Lots of technical stuff.

My god, I wish more people gave detail like that!

Thanks Chris!

 

[bvibert]

Snow-making efficiency is getting better not my spelling.

Thanks for the post Chris, we knew what you meant.

 

[basemoto]

My mountain can run 18000 guns at once and they make 5 ft of pow in 6 hours on 2000 acres.....wait that was in my dream last night DARN!!

 

[polski]

Two. "Both guns blazing" as they're fond of saying in their snow reports.

 

[trtaylor]

I don't know how many guns Camelback can run at one time, but here are some facts copied from their web site.

Acres of Terrain: 130
Miles of Pipe: 40
Compressor Capacity: 40,000 cfm
2,000 snow guns, including: 20 new Turbocristal Fan Guns, a mix of 110 Low Energy guns from HKD and Turbocristal LP models, 350 Snowstorm Avalanche 7's, 30 Avalanche 15’s, 9 Aerotech 357 Magnums, 110 Whisper Guns, 20 Quads, 600 Tower Guns, 15 Airless Fan Guns, 130 high-efficiency towers, and 40 tower and sled-mounted snowguns

They are 100% open as of Saturday 1/3. I suspect their approach is close to Sundown's.

 

[millerm277]

Hunter:
60+ Miles of snowmaking pipe.
~10,320 gallons of water a minute
Air capacity equals about 90,000 cfm.
Overall snowmaking capacity equals 40 tons of snow per minute
Over 1,100 guns.

And I know that they got a new compressor and a bunch more guns this year as well...

Number of guns seems like a bad measurement...water capacity is much better in my opinion.

 

[Sparky]

I have been told that Jiminy's recprd last year was 213 guns at one time.

That's all the detail I have.

 

[jackstraw]

from Cannons site...

Snow is our most important product.

Although Mother Nature kicks in an average of 160" to 170" of natural snow every winter, storms can be erratic, so Cannon like almost every ski area in the east, has the ability to provide excellent snow surfaces whether the storms come or not.

There are two processes to think about when it comes to the quality of the snow; snowmaking and grooming. Both are essential to consistent, high quality surface conditions. You are likely to see snowmaking in operation at any hour, especially during the early part of the season, but the grooming team does their work at night.

MAKING SNOW - A Modern Marvel
In order to make snow, cold air, and a good supply of water and power are vital. Because of our high elevation, the mountain typically has lower temperatures than surrounding areas. Temperatures typically drop by 3-5 degrees per thousand feet of elevation, so with a base at 1900 feet, and the ski area summit at 4080, it is often 15-20 degrees colder on the upper mountain than in the town of Franconia, over 3000 feet below. High elevation can occasionally produce temperature inversions, with temperatures rising as elevation is gained, so our snowmaking team has to constantly monitor conditions to make snow where it is most productive.

Water - A Key Ingredient
Cannon uses water from Echo Lake, which is largely spring fed and very clean. The water in the lake is generally replenished as quickly as we can pump it out, even though we may be taking more than 3000 gallons per minute from the lake. In the fall of 2008, we added another pump to the system, which increased our capacity to around 3800 gallons per minute!

The water is pumped through a network of 16 miles of pipes that run along the sides, or underneath Cannon’s trails and slopes. A series of small buildings around the mountain contain valves that allow the water to be sent only to the areas where we wish to make snow. Because of the elevation difference of over 2000 feet between the lake and the summit, a booster pump is located in a small building at an elevation of around 3400 feet. This is needed to ensure a strong flow of water to the highest elevations. Along the edges of trails are hydrants. The hydrants are in pairs; one for water and one for compressed air. The air is supplied by compressors which supply air to a matching network of 16 miles of pipe alongside the water lines.

Snow Guns - Turning Water into White
Cannon Mountain uses 3 types of snowmaking guns; fan guns, tower guns, and the more traditional land guns. Each has advantages and disadvantages, depending on the type of terrain that is to be covered. Fan guns are more suited to larger, open slopes, towers are used more in medium to wide trails, while land guns are the best choice for narrower trails. It is important that a constant watch is kept on the guns to ensure that the machine made snow is landing on the trails, not on the trees, since machine made snow is dense, and can easily snap trees and branches.

The principle of snowmaking is simple - water is atomized through special nozzles and pressure, and forced high up into the air. The atomized drops freeze as they float down toward the ground. Picture an enormous, and extremely powerful spray bottle, and you won’t be far from the idea. Although the principle is simple, there are many variations.

Fan Guns
Cannon uses Turbocrystal fan guns to make snow in the base area, and on open slopes around Tuckerbrook, and in open areas around the base of the Zoomer slopes. These guns have 1 large water nozzle in the center, but use no compressed air. The push of air is provided by a large fan, located behind the nozzle. Fan guns can make enormous quantities of snow over a large area, but are not well suited for narrow areas.

Land & Tower Types
Land based guns and towers use essentially the same principle- water is fed to the chamber behind the nozzle, and is atomized as it is forced out of the gun by compressed air. Land based guns can be aimed at very specific areas, but need to be constantly adjusted for direction. The tower guns simply take the land based nozzle and shoot it up as much as 30 feet off the ground. This allows for more time for the atomized water droplets to freeze, and allows the snow to fall over a larger area.


Humans - They Make the Difference
Even with the best snowmaking equipment available, our snow quality and production falls on the shoulders of our snowmaking team. They work in extreme conditions day and night; they get wet, cold and tired. And they make all the difference.

Whatever snowmaking method is used, the snowmaking team has to be constantly checking guns to allow for changes in wind, temperature and humidity. Teams make regular runs to be sure that the most important product we have is the right consistency, and landing where we want it. Another member of the team is on duty at the pumphouse at Echo Lake, monitoring water pumping, and making checks on air pressure. If the air pressure falls too low, some guns may have to be shut down to keep pressure high for the remainder. Colder temperatures allow more water to be fed through the nozzles. The more water, the less air is needed. In very cold temperatures, the pumping capacity will be reached and no more guns can be added. Warmer temperatures require more air, and can handle less water, so in warmer temperatures, the limit is based on the amount of compressed air available.

Machine made snow may be made in large piles, particularly in the early season in order to build a good solid base, or may be spread out more.

This is where to second, equally vital part of the effort comes into play.