How bad is it?

[Rothski]

I have been an innocent bystander for some time on this board, time to jump in! :-D

While the # of ski areas has fallen in NH since 1975 due to a variety of factors disucussed in this thread, I would be willing to bet that there is more skiable acreage in 2007 at the ski areas that have survived then there was for all of the open areas back in 1975. There has been consolidation in the ski industry - Ski areas that could afford the costs associated with staying business absorbed the skiers from the closed areas by expanding over time. Just a hypothesis.

 

[andyzee]

I wish the ice caps would melt already so that the ice age could get started! :lol:

 

[ctenidae]

I wish the ice caps would melt already so that the ice age could get started! :lol:

Yeah! Shut down the Gulf Stream and quit bringing all that warm water up here. Except, we need it for the moisture, but if everything would freeze over, then the snow will just keep piling up.

 

[loafer89]

Check out this cool slideshow of melting Swiss glaciers. :-(

An interesting twist from the NSDIC website:

Permanent ice fields are resisting global warming

Researchers from the Glaciology Laboratory taking an ice core sample on top of Mont Blanc, in 2005. © C. Vincent, CNRS 2007


The small ice caps of Mont Blanc and the Dôme du Goûter are not melting, or at least, not yet. This is what CNRS researchers have announced in the Journal of Geophysical Research. At very high altitudes (above 4200 meters), the accumulation of snow and ice has varied very little since the beginning of the 20th century. But if summer temperatures increase by a few degrees during the 21st century, the melt could become more marked, and could affect the "permanent" ice fields.

Alpine glaciers, which are mainly at an altitude between 2000 and 4000 meters, shrank considerably during the 20th century and particularly during the past twenty years, losing an average of 1 to 1.5 kilometers in length. However, the situation is different above 4200 meters.

At the altitude of the Dôme du Goûter (4300 m) or the summit of Mont Blanc (4810 m), all precipitation is solid, falling as snow. The ice fields melt very little, and only in extreme conditions such as the 2003 heatwave. Variations in the mass of glaciers only depend on the accumulation of snow and the downward flow of the glacier, as the ice is deformed under its own weight.

Based on this data, the glaciologists have shown that at these very high altitudes, the ice mass balance has remained almost constant over the last 100 years. They have also used old topographical maps to show that the thickness of these small ice caps on Mont Blanc and the nearby Dôme du Goûter has only changed by a few meters from 1905 to 2005. By comparison, at a lower altitude (1800 meters), the thickness of the Mer de Glace has decreased by 120 meters over the same period.

So the Mont Blanc and Dôme du Goûter ice fields have not yet been affected by climate change. However, during exceptional climatic events like the 2003 heatwave, positive temperatures caused some of the surface ice to melt. If episodes like this were to occur more often, this partial melting would no longer be negligible, and would have a significant effect on the ice mass. So there is no guarantee that "permanent" ice fields will stay that way in the future.

 

[ctenidae]

Don't know you could call that a "twist", though it is interesting. Too bad ice caps above 4200 meters comprise about 0.00000042% of the Earth's surface. I bet that, if they start melting, they'll go really fast, though- once that gorund starts getting dark, I bet it absorbs a whole lot of heat.

 

[loafer89]

Another interesting list of growing glaciers worldwide:

Here's a (partial) list of the
specific glaciers that are growing:​

• NORWAY Ålfotbreen Glacier
  Briksdalsbreen Glacier
  Nigardsbreen Glacier
  Hardangerjøkulen Glacier
  Hansebreen Glacier
  Jostefonn Glacier
  Engabreen glacier (The Engabreen glacier
  is the second largest glacier in Norway. It is a
  part (a glacial tongue) of the Svartisen glacier,
  which has steadily increased in mass since the
  1960s when heavier winter precipitation set in.)
• Norway's glaciers growing at record pace. The face of the Briksdal glacier, an off-shoot of the largest glacier in Norway and mainland Europe, is growing by an average 7.2 inches (18 centimeters) per day. (From the Norwegian daily Bergens Tidende.) See http://www.sepp.org/controv/afp.html
  Click here to see mass balance of Norwegian glaciers:
  http://www.nve.no/Choose "English" (at top of the page), choose "Water,"
  then "Hydrology,"then "Glaciers and Snow" from the menu.
  You'll see a list of all significant glaciers in Norway.
  (Thanks to Leif-K. Hansen for this info.)
• CANADA
  Helm Glacier
  Place Glacier

• ECUADOR
  Antizana 15 Alpha Glacier

• SWITZERLAND
  Silvretta Glacier

• KIRGHIZTAN
  Abramov

<UL type=disc>RUSSIA
Maali Glacier (This glacier is surging. See below)

GREENLAND See Greenland Icecap Growing Thicker
Greenland glacier advancing 7.2 miles per year!<SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 9.0pt">The BBC recently ran a documentary, The Big Chill, saying that we could be on the verge of an ice age. Britain could be heading towards an Alaskan-type climate within a decade, say scientists, because the Gulf Stream is being gradually cut off. The Gulf Stream keeps temperatures unusually high for such a northerly latitude.

One of Greenland’s largest glaciers has already doubled its rate of advance, moving forward at the rate of 12 kilometers (7.2 miles) per year. To see a transcript of the documentary, go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/bigchilltrans.shtml
NEW ZEALAND
All 48 glaciers in the Southern Alps have grown during the past year.
The growth is at the head of the glaciers, high in the mountains, where they
gained more ice than they lost. Noticeable growth should be seen at the
foot of the Fox and Franz Josef glaciers within two to three years.(27 May 2003)
Fox, Franz Josef glaciers defy trend - New Zealand's two best-known
glaciers are still on the march - 31 Jan 07 - See Franz Josef Glacier
.
.

SOUTH AMERICA
- Argentina's Perito Moreno Glacier (the largest glacier in Patagonia)
is advancing at the rate of 7 feet per day. The 250 km² ice formation,
30 km long, is one of 48 glaciers fed by the Southern Patagonian Ice
Field. This ice field, located in the Andes system shared with Chile,
is the world's third largest reserve of fresh water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perito_Moreno_Glacier

- Chile's Pio XI Glacier (the largest glacier in the southern hemisphere)
is also growing.

UNITED STATES
- Colorado (scroll down to see AP article)
- Washington (Mount St. Helens, Mt. Rainier* and Mt. Shuckson)
(scroll down to see photo of Mt. Baker)
- California (Mount Shasta - scroll down for info) - Montana (scroll down for info)
- Alaska (Mt. McKinley and Hubbard).
(scroll down to see article on Hubbard Glacier)
http://www.glaciercaves.com/html/anewgl_1.HTMMount St. Helens glacier (Crater Glacier) growing 50 feet per yearSeptember 20, 2004 - See Mount St. Helens

• Glaciers growing on California's Mount Shasta!
  12 Oct 03 - See Mount Shasta Glaciers Growing
• Geologists Unexpectedly Find 100 Glaciers in Colorado
  7 Oct 01 See Colorado Glaciers Growing ​
• Washington's Nisqually Glacier is Growing
  See Nisqually Glacier
• Glaciers in Montana's Glacier Park on the verge of growing
  5 Oct 2002. See Glacier Park ​
• Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing thicker
  See Antarctic Icecap Growing ThickerSee construction crane buried in the Antarctic Ice Sheet

* * *​

Himalayan Glaciers Not Shrinking
Glacial Experts Question Theory of Global Warming
15 Feb 07 - See Himalayan Glaciers Not Shrinking
.
.
Many people have asked why some glaciers in South America are melting. I think it is perfectly understandable. Remember, we have had two of the strongest El Ninos on record during the past 21 years. During an El Nino, a narrow band of the Pacific Ocean warms by as much as 14 degrees. This band of warm water travels east essentially along the equator until it slams into South America.
It seems logical that the increased rainfall caused by El Nino, plus the warmer winds blowing across the warmer water, could hasten glacial melt. But let me say it again. I do not believe that this is caused by humans, I think it is caused by the El Nino phenomenon, which is caused by underwater volcanism, which is increasing due to the ice-age cycle.
With this said, let me point out many glaciers in South America remain stable, and some - including the Pio XI Glacier and the Perito Moreno Glacier - are growing. The Pio XI Glacier is the largest glacier in the southern hemisphere. The Moreno Glacier is the largest glacier in Patagonia.
I find it curious that news reports do not mention these two glaciers.

* * *​

Contrary to previous reports, Arctic ice did not thin during the 1990s, say researchers at the Department of Oceanography at Göteborg University in Göteborg, Sweden. http://www.envirotruth.org/images/ice-in-90s.pdf

.
. Alaska Glacier Surges-17 Mar 06
See McGinnis Glacier
.
.
Look at what's happening on Mt. Baker, in Washington State. (Mt. Baker is near Mt. Shukson, where glaciers are now growing.)

This is a photo of my friend Jim Terrell taken on
Mt. Baker, Washington. Jim is more than six feet
tall. See the black line about six feet above his head?
That's where the snow from the winter of 1998/99
stopped melting. Above that, is snow that never
melted from the winter of 1999/2000. Why isn't
the media reporting this sort of thing?
.
.
Click here to read this in Espanol:http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/articulos-3/PorHielo.html
Thanks to Eduardo Ferreyra, who translated this material into
Spanish for the Argentinean Foundation for a Scientific Ecology.)
Photo by Mazz Terrell
19 July 2000​

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Originally Posted by ski_resort_observer
Last Monday it kinda windy and cold so I was thinking maybe this global warning thing was just a passing fad but last Thursday it was hot and humid. Whoops...global warming back on.

Agreed, the weather seems to change so often it becomes hard to tell what is really happening. Like, at the beginning of the winter everyone was thinking worried since records were set with the heat, then we hit late January and near records are set with the sustained cold. This spring has been below normal also, but the month of May has been very warm, and the summer is predicted to be a hot one. It really makes you think sometime, I always try to convince myself that it is all a lie and that we have just had some warm years, but other times it does seem all too real.

Sorry AMA did not mean to taken seriously...dry humor is so hard to pull off on the net......:lol:

On a serious note, scientists have studied the most recent global warming, 400 years during the middle ages, 700-1100 AD, when tensions between England and France were high cause England was now growing grapes and making wine and Greenland was discovered by the Vikings and was very green and lush(no ice).

This was followed by another 400 year period know as the 'Medieval Ice Age" in which Greenland became the island of ice and all the Vikings persished.

Point being that, according to climatic history, this thing is going to take a long time to get thru. Some will see little effect while others will be effected greatly.

Thanks for the info about the growing glaciers. I now know where the serious martini drinkers will be living 50 years from now. :wink:

 

[riverc0il]

loafer89 did not provide a source, but a quick Google search suggests that the information came from this site:
http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm

And a quick search on its author Robert W. Felix, who is promoting a new book, reveals this information:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1480279,00.html

The rebuttal above indicates that perhaps 55 out of around 625 (in line with the number of glaciers cited above in the lifted quote without citation), of glaciers world wide might be expanding which would be an astonishing 9%. There is a theory about this type of highlighting counter examples to refute overwhelming evidence and it is called "counting the hits, and ignoring the misses." Essentially, you highlight evidence that supports your point of view and ignore strong evidence that supports the opposing point of view. 9% of glaciers increasing in size supports my previous statement on this issue in saying that while the overall trend is a global warming pattern, certain regions may experience colder or snowier weather patterns despite the larger trend, and I am sure any legitimate scientist on the issue would point this out instead. There are going to be pockets that cool. Overwhelming evidence is on the other side though.

 

[loafer89]

loafer89 did not provide a source, but a quick Google search suggests that the information came from this site:
http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm

And a quick search on its author Robert W. Felix, who is promoting a new book, reveals this information:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1480279,00.html

The rebuttal above indicates that perhaps 55 out of around 625 (in line with the number of glaciers cited above in the lifted quote without citation), of glaciers world wide might be expanding which would be an astonishing 9%. There is a theory about this type of highlighting counter examples to refute overwhelming evidence and it is called "counting the hits, and ignoring the misses." Essentially, you highlight evidence that supports your point of view and ignore strong evidence that supports the opposing point of view. 9% of glaciers increasing in size supports my previous statement on this issue in saying that while the overall trend is a global warming pattern, certain regions may experience colder or snowier weather patterns despite the larger trend, and I am sure any legitimate scientist on the issue would point this out instead. There are going to be pockets that cool. Overwhelming evidence is on the other side though.

I 100% agree with the above statement, I just found the www.iceagenow.com site today while searching through the NSDIC files and though I would post another viewpoint.. The advance of glaciers worldwide for the most part has to do with global warming as strange as this may sound, because that is actually melting surface snow and ice and "lubricating" the surface between the ice and bedrock, allowing glaciers to move and advance very quickly. This advance is of course done at the expense of a net loss of mass balance.

There are exceptions to this rule, the glaciers in the Sierra are thriving due to heavy snowfall in the last decade, Mount Saint Helens has grown a 650' thick glacier in it's crater since 1980, but that is north facing and heavily shaded from the sun. Norwegian glaciers are also expanding due to increased snowfall in the winter due to warmer air/more precipitation.

There may be a short term 50-100 year gain in ice in Antarctica and a select few other areas as most warm air is transported to areas where it was otherwise foreign, resulting in more snow and a modest gain in the mass balance of glaciers, before global warming overcomes that.

 

[loafer89]

For all of the information that one could want about the cryosphere, visit http://nsidc.org/
This is a collaboration of NASA and NOAA scientists that monitor the frozen aspects of our planet. I find the research and articles to be very fascinating if sometimes sobering.

 

[ctenidae]

When discussing growing and shrinking glaciers, please remember that the climate is a complicated thing. Global Warming does not mean that every spot on the planet will warm up, either equally or at all. The fact that some glaciers are growing while others are shrinking does not eliminate global climate change as a reality. Take a look at what's changed- shrinking ones that used to grow, and/or growing ones that used to shrink. That's where you find evidence of climate change, not in the statement that 9% of the world's glaciers are growing.

 

[Marc]

When discussing growing and shrinking glaciers, please remember that the climate is a complicated thing. Global Warming does not mean that every spot on the planet will warm up, either equally or at all. The fact that some glaciers are growing while others are shrinking does not eliminate global climate change as a reality. Take a look at what's changed- shrinking ones that used to grow, and/or growing ones that used to shrink. That's where you find evidence of climate change, not in the statement that 9% of the world's glaciers are growing.

Yeah but it's good we know where they are growing, so we can go ski them. Thanks loafer.

 

[Marc]

Sorry AMA did not mean to taken seriously...dry humor is so hard to pull off on the net......:lol:

On a serious note, scientists have studied the most recent global warming, 400 years during the middle ages, 700-1100 AD, when tensions between England and France were high cause England was now growing grapes and making wine and Greenland was discovered by the Vikings and was very green and lush(no ice).

This was followed by another 400 year period know as the 'Medieval Ice Age" in which Greenland became the island of ice and all the Vikings persished.

Point being that, according to climatic history, this thing is going to take a long time to get thru. Some will see little effect while others will be effected greatly.

Thanks for the info about the growing glaciers. I now know where the serious martini drinkers will be living 50 years from now. :wink:

I knew what you meant SRO, and I picked up on the humor.

Of course, an endorsement of one's humor from me is dubious at best..... :dunce:

 

[wa-loaf]

You know, this whole issue here reminds me so much of the Lobster "overfishing" issue.

Lobsters are being hauled in at a record rate over the last few years. Ecotypes are saying that this simply is not sustainable. The lobster men say the eco types don't know what they are talking about. My mind wanders to the plight of the buffalo. The buffalo hunters said you couldn't possibly kill them all.

So, all things being equal, I feared the lobster would go the way of the buffalo, in my lifetime. BUT>>>>>> all things are not equal.!!! The eco types could have mentioned that as a by product of the cod fisheries being desimated, almost completely wiped out, the lobsters have a whole lot less prey to feed upon them. So... the lobsters will either overflow their region, and then starve themselves out, or we could help control population overgrowth.

The eco types could have mentioned this. The lobstermen could have mentioned this. The reporters could have reported this. But no one brought to light this critical element in the issue.

(BTW, I consider myself more of an eco type than a lobsterman, although I find them quite tasty. )

<tangent>Interesting fact about lobsters from a Mainer. Although the lobster fishing industry is doing well for whatever reason, the lobster stocks are nowhere near what they used to be. Back around the turn of the century (the last one, not the resent one) lobsters were so abundant that you could pull them out of tidepools by hand and were considered poor peoples food. There were laws passed that limited the amount of lobster you could feed to prisoners!</tangent> Please return to your regularly scheduled global warming discussion. ;-)

 

[Marc]

<tangent>Interesting fact about lobsters from a Mainer. Although the lobster fishing industry is doing well for whatever reason, the lobster stocks are nowhere near what they used to be. Back around the turn of the century (the last one, not the resent one) lobsters were so abundant that you could pull them out of tidepools by hand and were considered poor peoples food. There were laws passed that limited the amount of lobster you could feed to prisoners!</tangent> Please return to your regularly scheduled global warming discussion. ;-)

I wonder if the lobsters like the warming or if they think they're being cooked in my stock pot.

 

[wa-loaf]

I wonder if the lobsters like the warming or if they think they're being cooked in my stock pot.

Actually they don't like it. Maine is going strong, but southern New England and NY/NJ are really suffering. The water is warming up and it's causing the lobsters to be effected(infected) with a shell disease that's causing the stocks to decline dramatically. :sad:

 

[Marc]

Actually they don't like it. Maine is going strong, but southern New England and NY/NJ are really suffering. The water is warming up and it's causing the lobsters to be effected(infected) with a shell disease that's causing the stocks to decline dramatically. :sad:

Do you think fewer people would cook them if they screamed when you dropped them in the pot?


It's a good thing they don't really have a true brain. Otherwise I'd feel bad about eating such a tastey bottom feeder.

 

[loafer89]

And now to add a little chill to our summer warmth:

UK Coldest since 1772 - 29 May 07 – "We had already suffered the great washout
over the weekend. And yesterday - to complete the misery - came the big chill. "Arctic
winds swept across the country at speeds of up to 50mph in one of the coldest Whitsun
Bank Holidays since records began in 1772. "Sleet lashed the Chilterns while hail battered cricket fans at Headingley. Beaches were
deserted as rain continued to pour down across the country. The AA said thousands cut
their long weekends short to battle appalling road conditions."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23398458-details/Bank%20holiday%20washout%20was%20one%20of%20coldest%20on%20record/article.do
Thanks to Charles Patrick for this link
Freak snow, freezing temperatures and tropical storms across Europe - 29 May 07
In Spitzing in Germany, ten centimeters of snow brought out the snow plows for the first time this year. It was the same story in towns close to the Alps in Austria, Switzerland and even northern Italy where
temperatures in May routinely climb into the 80s.
In one Swiss valley, 3,000 were trapped in hotels and guest houses because trains could not reach
them in the snow. Further north in cities like Berlin, tropical storms have brought four days of chaos,
dumping hailstones as big as golf balls, uprooting trees and causing widespread flooding.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=458562&in_page_id=1811
Thanks to Dan Groseck for this link

Cold Wave Forces Gas Rationing in Argentina - 29 May 07 - Argentina rationed
electricity to companies and severed natural gas supplies to Chile as a cold wave prompted
record demand for electricity. The temperature in many parts of Argentina fell below freezing yesterday, pushing electricity
demand to a record 18,300 megawatts, according to the country's energy regulator.
About 100 schools in Buenos Aires province are closed today for lack of sufficient heating.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=latin_america&sid=av0tvGQPKLKU
Thanks to Benjamin Napier for this link

Freak Snow Storm Hits Nepal - 29 May 07 - Dozens of people were feared killed in
remote parts of north-western Nepal after the areas were hit by a freak snow storm and
blizzard, officials said Tuesday.

The casualties were reported in the remote north-western mountainous district of Dolpa,
about 450 km northwest of the Nepalese capital, on Monday.

The snow storm is said to have hit a mountainous area where hundreds of people had
gathered to collect an herb locally known as Yarshagumba, which is thought to increase
sex drive. Other reports in the Nepalese capital said up to 1 500 people were stranded
in heavy snows. http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=126&art_id=nw20070529095234381C871116
Thanks to BenjaminNapier for this link
Wintry Chill in Southern South America - 29 May 07 - A cold outbreak invaded
southern South America at the start of this week bringing with it local snow as well as a
widespread frost and hard freeze. Snow dusted western Argentina in areas such as
Mendoza. There was even a bit of snow northward along the Andean foothills to near
the Bolivia-Argentina border. Rare snow also fell over the southern Pampas at Tres
Arroyos. Monday`s high at Buenos Aires was only 42 degrees, 20 degrees below normal. Low temperatures included 17 degrees early Tuesday at Santa Rosa, but even harsher
cold gripped northern Patagonia: Maquinchaco, Argentina, registered early morning lows
of 1 and 3 degrees, respectively, Monday and Tuesday. Even southern Brazil shivered
with Bom Jesus reading 24 degrees Tuesday morning.
Story by AccuWx.com Senior Forecaster Jim Andrews

 

[dmc]

The climate on this Plant Earth has always been changing.. hey even the continents don't stay in one spot. The one constant on this planet is change ... get use to it.

Yes but if we(Man) make things change too fast nature can't keep up...

 

[dmc]

Actually it is the other way around I think .. If nature ( climate ) changes too fast man can't keep up. Nature doesn't really "care" how fast it changes. Oh how did the brownies turn out?

But man can adjust... We have thumbs... Nature doesn't care... But i do... I like nature..

Brownies look good - heavent tried them yet...