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I get holding your thumb on the scale a bit, but. . .

Whitey

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I know this subject gets kicked around a lot on this forum, but I think some of the snow report "embellishment" that's gone on this last week is really out of control this time. Jay reporting almost 3 feet of new snow in the last 7 days. Burke saying 31" of new snow. Cannon claiming 19" of new. Etc, etc, etc.

Come on gang. It was a GREAT late season snow storm. But almost 3 feet of it at Jay?? No, I was there and this storm was their only new snow for several days. It was maybe a foot and a half and even that may be a stretch, probably more like 14-15"s. I am 6 feet tall, 3 ft deep means that I would have been skiing waist deep snow. Shin deep - yes probably. Waist = NFW. With the way the wind was blowing I am not sure how the heck you would have measured it accurately anyway. You could have measured 6 feet of it in some of the blown in places and 0" in the wind scoured other places.

I get that this storm gave all of the areas the opportunity to get some hype out of it and maybe pump up late season ski visits. But for some reason "excessive over-hyping of snow totals" just bugs me. I am OK with a little bit of "thumb on the scale" measuring but at least keep it reasonable.
 
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WWF-VT

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Sugarbush was very accurate on the last storm. I was there and actually used a measuring tape to check how much snow we had on Friday midday when there were whiteout conditions for a while.

I skied at Lincoln Peak on Friday and Saturday afternoons and at Mt Ellen on Saturday and Sunday and Sugarbush could have easily embellished the snow totals with the depth of the snow drifts but kept it real by reporting 26" from the storm.
 

2Planker

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I know this subject gets kicked around a lot on this forum, but I think some of the snow report "embellishment" that's gone on this last week is really out of control this time. Jay reporting almost 3 feet of new snow in the last 7 days. Burke saying 31" of new snow. Cannon claiming 19" of new. Etc, etc, etc.

Come on gang. It was a GREAT late season snow storm. But almost 3 feet of it at Jay?? No, I was there and this storm was their only new snow for several days. It was maybe a foot and a half and even that may be a stretch, probably more like 14-15"s. I am 6 feet tall, 3 ft deep means that I would have been skiing waist deep snow. Shin deep - yes probably. Waist = NFW. With the way the wind was blowing I am not sure how the heck you would have measured it accurately anyway. You could have measured 6 feet of it in some of the blown in places and 0" in the wind scoured other places.

I get that this storm gave all of the areas the opportunity to get some hype out of it and maybe pump up late season ski visits. But I don't know for some reason "excessive over-hyping of snow totals" just bugs me. I am OK with a little bit of "thumb on the scale" measuring but at least keep it reasonable.

They're measuring in centimeters to keep all the Canucks happy
 

AdironRider

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I know this subject gets kicked around a lot on this forum, but I think some of the snow report "embellishment" that's gone on this last week is really out of control this time. Jay reporting almost 3 feet of new snow in the last 7 days. Burke saying 31" of new snow. Cannon claiming 19" of new. Etc, etc, etc.

Come on gang. It was a GREAT late season snow storm. But almost 3 feet of it at Jay?? No, I was there and this storm was their only new snow for several days. It was maybe a foot and a half and even that may be a stretch, probably more like 14-15"s. I am 6 feet tall, 3 ft deep means that I would have been skiing waist deep snow. Shin deep - yes probably. Waist = NFW. With the way the wind was blowing I am not sure how the heck you would have measured it accurately anyway. You could have measured 6 feet of it in some of the blown in places and 0" in the wind scoured other places.

I get that this storm gave all of the areas the opportunity to get some hype out of it and maybe pump up late season ski visits. But I don't know for some reason "excessive over-hyping of snow totals" just bugs me. I am OK with a little bit of "thumb on the scale" measuring but at least keep it reasonable.

Snow does settle. 3 feet of snow has a decent amount of water content in it, and with all that water comes a lot of weight. Also, if it has been several hours since that snow fell it will naturally compact even further. If it warms up it compacts even faster. Ive seen a three foot dump lose a foot of depth in a matter of hours. NOAA should have some weather stations around that could provide a barometer to measure it by.

Also, depending on timing, if it snowed all day while they were open it naturally is going to get packed down. We get a lot of 2-3 day storms out here that have impressive inch numbers (40+) but you'll never actually ski more than boot deep snow, at least in bounds.
 

Whitey

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I skied at Lincoln Peak on Friday and Saturday afternoons and at Mt Ellen on Saturday and Sunday and Sugarbush could have easily embellished the snow totals with the depth of the snow drifts but kept it real by reporting 26" from the storm.

Like I said, it was a GREAT late season storm. But come on, man - put down the Kool-aid, you've had enough. Without wind aided blow-in they didn't get more than knee deep powder (i.e. 26") from this storm. It sounds good at the bar but it's not reality. It is certainly not "very accurate". I was further north and higher elevation, and Jay didn't even get 26". Even though they claim 35".
 
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Has Cannon been embellishing their snowfall totals? They seem to have outpaced Willdcat in most years recently (Willdcat claims a 207 inch average compared to 160 at Cannon and seems to generally have more snow on the ground). I could see Cannon getting more than Willdcat over a full season here and there, but it feels like it's been years since Willdcat reported significantly more snow in a season than Cannon. I assumed the discrepancy was due to Willdcat's reporter not adding up every last inch, but given the first post here and how frequently Cannon has topped it's average recently, it makes me wonder.

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WWF-VT

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Like I said, it was a GREAT late season storm. But come on, man - put down the Kool-aid, you've had enough. Without wind aided blow-in they didn't get more than knee deep powder (i.e. 26") from this storm. It sounds good at the bar but it's not reality. It is certainly not "very accurate". I was further north and higher elevation, and Jay didn't even get 26". Even though they claim 35".

I guess I must have bought a defective Stanley Tape Measure
 

Whitey

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Snow does settle. 3 feet of snow has a decent amount of water content in it, and with all that water comes a lot of weight. Also, if it has been several hours since that snow fell it will naturally compact even further. If it warms up it compacts even faster. Ive seen a three foot dump lose a foot of depth in a matter of hours. NOAA should have some weather stations around that could provide a barometer to measure it by.

Also, depending on timing, if it snowed all day while they were open it naturally is going to get packed down. We get a lot of 2-3 day storms out here that have impressive inch numbers (40+) but you'll never actually ski more than boot deep snow, at least in bounds.

Good points. I hadn't really thought that much about the methodology of snow measuring. I guess I just kind of assumed that it was a "5 minutes after the last flake falls we'll run out and put yard stick in it and see how much fell" kind of thing. The compacting thing could be a factor but I still think there was/is a lot of embellishment going on in New England ski country last weekend.

But part of my issue was that I did ski stuff in the woods and elsewhere that hadn't been touched by anyone yet and I did so in the last few hours of the storm and there was no way it was anywhere near 3 feet. So when I saw them reporting that my BS detector started banging away loudly. Kind of like when WWF said he skis with a Stanley measuring tape in his pocket and stops and takes snow measurements on a powder day. Well maybe not banging as loudly as that example. . .
 

cdskier

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Like I said, it was a GREAT late season storm. But come on, man - put down the Kool-aid, you've had enough. Without wind aided blow-in they didn't get more than knee deep powder (i.e. 26") from this storm. It sounds good at the bar but it's not reality. It is certainly not "very accurate". I was further north and higher elevation, and Jay didn't even get 26". Even though they claim 35".

Sorry, you can say what you want, but I agree with WWF. Sugarbush's numbers were accurate from what I experienced first hand. Don't forget that the 26" was a 2 day total. So some got skied on Friday and packed down and/or skied off before more fell Friday night.

NWS officially reported 16" in the valley. There absolutely was easily 10" additional (if not more) on the mountain vs what was in the valley. Are you saying the NWS reports are embellishing as well?
 

WWF-VT

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But part of my issue was that I did ski stuff in the woods and elsewhere that hadn't been touched by anyone yet and I did so in the last few hours of the storm and there was no way it was anywhere near 3 feet. So when I saw them reporting that my BS detector started banging away loudly. Kind of like when WWF said he skis with a Stanley measuring tape in his pocket and stops and takes snow measurements on a powder day. Well maybe not banging as loudly as that example. . .

FWIW - I have a condo at the base of Mt Ellen and measured the snowfall on a railing that is about 5" wide and protected from the wind. I only measured because I was surprised at how much snow fell in a 2-3 hour period on Friday morning.
 

Whitey

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Sorry, you can say what you want, but I agree with WWF. Sugarbush's numbers were accurate from what I experienced first hand. Don't forget that the 26" was a 2 day total. So some got skied on Friday and packed down and/or skied off before more fell Friday night.

NWS officially reported 16" in the valley. There absolutely was easily 10" additional (if not more) on the mountain vs what was in the valley. Are you saying the NWS reports are embellishing as well?

In that case then you must have some pictures of you knee+ deep in powder then, right? Because I was skiing somewhere that is claiming a foot more than what SB is claiming and I never found it. If there was knee deep snow to be found you 100% would have gotten a pic of me or someone else knee deep skiing in it. Plus; a 10" increase or more over what fell in the valley? Are you sure you don't have your thumb on the scale a bit yourself?

I think AR did hit on something with how they measure snowfall and compacting. But if it makes you and WWF happy to say "I skied 2+ feet deep snow last weekend at SB" - have at it. Me? If someone tells me there's 2 feet of new snow I am going to expect to step into it and sink to my knees. If it comes up to my boot tops, then I am going to say "yah, that's more like 14 inches, not 2 feet".

But maybe how I think about measuring snowfall is wrong, so what do I know?
 

Whitey

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FWIW - I have a condo at the base of Mt Ellen and measured the snowfall on a railing that is about 5" wide and protected from the wind. I only measured because I was surprised at how much snow fell in a 2-3 hour period on Friday morning.

I had the EXACT same experience at Jay. Even including the "snow on the railing at the condo catching my attention Friday morning" thing. Friday morning's accumulation was impressive. But we both know that it didn't stay that way after about noon on Friday. It was dumping, but the rapid accumulation when the storm started didn't last more than the first 4-6 hrs of the storm. After that it was dumping but not like the first few hours.
 

cdskier

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In that case then you must have some pictures of you knee+ deep in powder then, right? Because I was skiing somewhere that is claiming a foot more than what SB is claiming and I never found it. If there was knee deep snow to be found you 100% would have gotten a pic of me or someone else knee deep skiing in it. Plus; a 10" increase or more over what fell in the valley? Are you sure you don't have your thumb on the scale a bit yourself?

If you have issues with how much Jay reported, take that up with them. I always enjoy when someone else tries to tell me what I did or didn't experience first hand though even though that other person wasn't there. If that makes you feel better though, go right ahead.

I had first tracks down a trail at SB that was groomed Friday night (after half the snow had already fallen). I was skiing in boot deep snow. If 14" fell before being groomed and I was still skiing boot deep snow on top of the groomed snow, that means a good foot fell after that initial amount. Add that together and it isn't hard to see how they came up with 26" for a total.

Also not sure how you could find a 10"+ difference between the valley and mountain unbelievable. Right from the start this was predicted to be a highly elevation sensitive event (particularly for the first half).
 

2Planker

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Has Cannon been embellishing their snowfall totals? They seem to have outpaced Willdcat in most years recently (Willdcat claims a 207 inch average compared to 160 at Cannon and seems to generally have more snow on the ground). I could see Cannon getting more than Willdcat over a full season here and there, but it feels like it's been years since Willdcat reported significantly more snow in a season than Cannon. I assumed the discrepancy was due to Willdcat's reporter not adding up every last inch, but given the first post here and how frequently Cannon has topped it's average recently, it makes me wonder.

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Cannon's GM is JD who learned how to embellish in his early years from the best - Sunday River.

We had a real yard stick, and the SR official one, which was the same length, but to them measured about 60"

I think The Cat has to be about the most honest w/ their reporting of snow totals
 

KustyTheKlown

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It’s a storm total. With particularly dense snow at the front end followed by lighter powder on the back end. You wouldn’t sink into the heavier stuff, and it compacts, and it was skied Friday.
 

deadheadskier

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What I hear people say about Jay is the snow is so light and dry that it compacts faster and condenses more than say Northern NH snow.

There is some truth to this, at least based upon my observations of living in Northern VT for many years and now living in NH and skiing Wildcat more than anywhere else.

That said, Wildcat is claiming 172" so far this season to Jay's 398". There is no way in hell anyone could head out to TBrook at Cat today and then ski Big Jay tomorrow and say, "Yup, Jay certainly has received 226" more snow than Wildcat this season." Not even close. 298" might be believable, but not 398".

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When you have heavier snow with a higher water content it can be deep but you might only sink in a few inches. We get big dumps here that often buff out from the wind and you literally only sink in 3 inches. And by big dumps I mean like 5 feet in 48 hours. In all honesty I prefer that kind of skiing over the blower every damn time. The wind buff is magical and you get to go superhuman speeds. Blower to me feels like slow motion and it kind of sucks unless you are on some long steep stuff.
 

crazy

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What I hear people say about Jay is the snow is so light and dry that it compacts faster and condenses more than say Northern NH snow.

There is some truth to this, at least based upon my observations of living in Northern VT for many years and now living in NH and skiing Wildcat more than anywhere else.

That said, Wildcat is claiming 172" so far this season to Jay's 398". There is no way in hell anyone could head out to TBrook at Cat today and then ski Big Jay tomorrow and say, "Yup, Jay certainly has received 226" more snow than Wildcat this season." Not even close. 298" might be believable, but not 398".

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I want to agree about the season totals, because the difference between 172" and 398" feels ridiculous, but I believe that it is true for two reasons:

- The Mount Mansfield snow stake is showing the third biggest snow depth right now since the 1954-1955 season
- Smuggler's Notch is reporting 370" of snow YTD

For whatever reason, Northern VT is having a stellar season, while the rest of New England is having anywhere from a slightly below average to slightly above average season in terms of snowfall. Jay's average annual snowfall is 323" vs. 207" for Wildcat, so Wildcat is having a below average season (though the season isn't over yet), and Jay is having an above average season.

For more discussion on Jay Peak's seasonal snow numbers, check out this thread that has some snowfall experts including Tony Crocker talking about Jay Peak's snowfall: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11837&start=15. My takeaway is that even if some of the individual numbers feel a bit fudged, the overall numbers don't seem exaggerated based on the climate profile of Jay Peak. It's in the perfect spot.
 
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