It's so bad you have to pay people to move to Vermont

[spring_mountain_high]

vermont will always be small, remote, and cold...the growing season and land quality do not lend themselves to serious AG and nobody is making a real living tilling rocky fields with horses. farm to table only works where you have transplant trustafarians who can afford the high prices. you can slashl the taxes and kill all the endangered animals in the state and it will still not change those facts. tourism and niche AG are about all its got. this aint the 1790's and i don't see it becoming the new tech hotbed either. it is what it is. the bleak-ass ride up 22a, that's the real vermont.

 

[Orca]

vermont will always be small, remote, and cold...the growing season and land quality do not lend themselves to serious AG and nobody is making a real living tilling rocky fields with horses. farm to table only works where you have transplant trustafarians who can afford the high prices. you can slashl the taxes and kill all the endangered animals in the state and it will still not change those facts. tourism and niche AG are about all its got. this aint the 1790's and i don't see it becoming the new tech hotbed either. it is what it is. the bleak-ass ride up 22a, that's the real vermont.

So you say Vermont is pathetic and always will be no matter what cuz thems the facts. But, I doubt your pessimism is shared by the working people of the state nor the businesses. My guess is that their big concerns aren't the cold or the size of the state or horses plowing fields, but rather the hostile tax structures that make economic life harder than in other states.

 

[Orca]

"Vermonters pay an average of 10.3% of their income in state and local taxes every year, one of the highest shares of any state. Vermonters pay more in taxes on average than residents of any other state. The state collects an average of $4,950 per taxpayer annually, the most of any state and about $2,000 more than is typical across all states."

-- USA Today, 6 April 2018

 

[mbedle]

My stepsister is the best kisser in the park bud! Show some respect!

LOL - that was good.

 

[mister moose]

"Vermonters pay an average of 10.3% of their income in state and local taxes every year, one of the highest shares of any state. Vermonters pay more in taxes on average than residents of any other state. The state collects an average of $4,950 per taxpayer annually, the most of any state and about $2,000 more than is typical across all states."

-- USA Today, 6 April 2018

That's sobering. When it comes time, even though I might have a retirement ski home in VT, I might need to have a residence for 181 days somewhere else.

 

[kbroderick]

That's sobering. When it comes time, even though I might have a retirement ski home in VT, I might need to have a residence for 181 days somewhere else.

It's not just the income tax that gets you (the income tax rates aren't, IME, all that bad; with a relatively steady income level, I didn't see a lot of difference in Vermont vs. Montana vs. Maine); it's that in combination with a high cost of living, plus sales tax.

The sales tax has more carve outs than some states, but 6% on almost everything adds up quickly, especially vehicles.

The high cost of housing, while influenced by regulatory regime, isn't that alone; you can get a nice place pretty cheap in some parts of Vermont, it just won't be particularly close to particularly good ski terrain or employment opportunities (Jay may be an exception because it's so damn far from everything else). Again IME, but I think the out-of-state money driving up real estate values around tourist centers is a big part of the housing-cost issue, and if there's a way to regulate yourself out of it, I'm not sure what that is.

I've looked at the tax data from a couple of different sources, as well as my own results, and while Vermont is a relatively high-tax state, so are most of its neighbors, so I don't think that's the only piece of the puzzle.

Oh, and don't forget that there is a property-tax credit for Vermont being your primary residence, so that would offset some of the income-tax hit. If you're actually going to try to beat the system, you'll need to take a close look at a lot of details; things like how many vehicles you own can have a significant impact.

 

[EPB]

vermont will always be small, remote, and cold...the growing season and land quality do not lend themselves to serious AG and nobody is making a real living tilling rocky fields with horses. farm to table only works where you have transplant trustafarians who can afford the high prices. you can slashl the taxes and kill all the endangered animals in the state and it will still not change those facts. tourism and niche AG are about all its got. this aint the 1790's and i don't see it becoming the new tech hotbed either. it is what it is. the bleak-ass ride up 22a, that's the real vermont.

This is precisely why being friendly to companies like IBM and trying to convince businesses that there is a solid base of young people that love VT graduating from its many Burlington area colleges to hire is a much better way forward than trying to gouge companies into oblivion (or more practically, into another state). People love going to VT for it's scenery/outdoor activities. Many more would make it their permanent home if it has a more robust business scene.

It's 2020. Nobody in the developed world wants to be an agrerarian or oil-based economy. Why you continue to hold up the fact that VT can't be one demonstrates that economics is not in your wheelhouse - which is fine because we all cultivate specialized skill sets in the developed world. Commodity businesses are notoriously cyclical and have slim profit margins. They do not provide the abundance of stable college-level jobs that service-based companies do.

Does VT have the economic resources of Westchester County, NY? Of course not. But there are countless "bleak ass rides" you could take in upstate, central and western NY, too (same goes for your native PA by the way). The reason why VT as a whole has fared so poorly is much to do with their (and your) misunderstanding of how businesses make location decisions (which isn't tough - just put the shoe on the other foot and ask why Business X would want to put up with my regulatory regime). The foundation for a strong Burlington-area economy exists, but leadership and the electorate has stood in its own way.

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[FBGM]

LOL - that was good.

Ah the two trumptards but there 6 brain cells together and made a funny

 

[56fish]

we're fine :beer::beer:

 

[EPB]

Ah the two trumptards but there 6 brain cells together and made a funny

Have you made a single intelligent comment on this site?

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[cdskier]

Ah the two trumptards but there 6 brain cells together and made a funny

If you're going to make fun of someone else's intelligence, at least don't make numerous simple mistakes in your comments.

 

[EPB]

If you're going to make fun of someone else's intelligence, at least don't make numerous simple mistakes in your comments.

Hahahahaha. My skin is plenty thick enough to handle this guy calling me an idiot. I do find it quite pathetic that he needed to stoop to using a term like the one he used, though. It's classless.

FBGM - feel free to make a substantive challenge to anything I said. It would be fun to see if you're capable of anything other than nonsense.

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[raisingarizona]

Ah the two trumptards but there 6 brain cells together and made a funny

Making ass-umptions ain’t so smart either bud. Show me where I wrote about being a trump supporter. That’s right, there’s nothing because I’ve never said that ever on the Internet or in real life.

You wanna know what’s really dumb? Identity politics. That really brings the jack ass out in people.

The funniest part though is that this whole hard core leftist bit where as soon as someone says something you don’t agree with and y’all get super triggered is gonna March that orange buffoon right back into office after the next election. I may not be a supporter but I will enjoy that part.

 

[thetrailboss]

Vermont has chosen economic policy that is so unattractive to business and the younger demographic that wants to participate in a vibrant economy, that its government is now paying people to move there.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/610887/you-can-now-get-paid-7500-move-vermont

It's hardly worth saying that such interventions are not sustainable and not a long term solution.

Vermont's median age us up 10 years from 1990 when its median age was the same as the country. (The rest of the country is up 5 years from 1990.) Vermont has seen population decline of 0.3% from 2010. The working age population is in decline.

If each state functions a sort of laboratory experiment to demonstrate the results of government policy, Vermont is playing its role as a cautionary lesson to the other states.

Very true. Count my wife and me as examples of those younger folks who left. A lot of my friends and family who are still there are wondering why they are paying people to live there when they should be reducing the cost of living there for everyone.

 

[thetrailboss]

"Vermonters pay an average of 10.3% of their income in state and local taxes every year, one of the highest shares of any state. Vermonters pay more in taxes on average than residents of any other state. The state collects an average of $4,950 per taxpayer annually, the most of any state and about $2,000 more than is typical across all states."

-- USA Today, 6 April 2018

Bingo.

 

[thetrailboss]

Why did IBM build a chip fab plant in Essex Junction in the 60's, and expand it in the 80s, and become the largest employer in the state? What existed then that doesn't exist now?

FWIW the former IBM plant in Essex Junction is a very small shadow of its former self. IBM moved a lot of its production to Fishkill. The State of Vermont from the 1980's on basically killed that plant and those very good jobs. Same thing with Vermont Yankee.

 

[thetrailboss]

That's sobering. When it comes time, even though I might have a retirement ski home in VT, I might need to have a residence for 181 days somewhere else.

A lot of folks do that.

 

[flakeydog]

FWIW the former IBM plant in Essex Junction is a very small shadow of its former self. IBM moved a lot of its production to Fishkill. The State of Vermont from the 1980's on basically killed that plant and those very good jobs. Same thing with Vermont Yankee.

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. While it conveniently fits the narrative, don't think for a moment that the state of Vermont actually had any significant influence on the business strategy of a multi-national semiconductor manufacturer. When business is good, things are great, downturns and a fundamental global shift in the industry are the root cause of this issue. Not even massive corporate welfare can help- ask the state of New York. They paid $400-500k per job back in the early 2000s. That worked out so well that they just shelled out another $40M to "preserve" the scraps of those very same jobs. Yes, Vermont could do more to attract business but they don't have the deep pockets that other states have for this sort of thing but given the history of some of these deals, that may not be a bad thing.

And yes, it can be expensive to live here but, for me, I am willing to pay that premium. Vermont is a very nice place and like most things in life, nicer stuff costs more.

 

[Orca]

"[The] assertion that Vermont has an overspending problem and not a revenue problem is backed up by the numbers. In fact, had Vermont kept state spending in line with the rate of population growth and inflation during the last decade, the state would’ve spent $6 billion less than it did."

-- Forbes, 3 April 2016

 

[Orca]

"Vermont homeowners can breathe a temporary sigh of (relative) relief. A government shutdown has been avoided, and most homeowners’ property taxes will not increase until 2020. Vermont business owners were not so lucky, and will face a tax hike in 2019.

Simply put, our government made the tax situation worse this year when it passed the hike. In 2017, Vermont had the 3rd most oppressive business taxes in the country. After our 2018 tax hike, Vermont can compete with California and New Jersey for the ignominious title of “state with the highest taxes on enterprise.”"

-- Ethan Allen Institute, 29 June 2018