Jay Peak Conceptual Development Plan (2011-2016)

[UVSHTSTRM]

That's incredible money to be able to sink into a ski resort these days. Jay is in a unique situation but other resorts would kill for that.

I think something along these lines was mentioned before, and If I remember, other ski resorts could take advantage of this if they wanted to. Which makes me think there must be other requirements for resorts to meet in order to take advantage of such a process.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

BTW, I just read up on the EB5 program, and per $500,000 invested, 10 jobs must be created, and the area that the buisness is located must be eligibility requirements. One of the big requirements would be high unemployment rates with in certain region/area. So I guess Jay Peak must be planning on highering another 4000 people..hmm seems odd. I am guessing the 10 jobs per can be adjusted some or the 200-250 million they have must not all be from the EB5. This would explain why many resorts don't use this form of capital. For example a place like Sugarloaf who is located in an area with high unemployment (perhaps not though) wouldn't consider this because really they already have a large housing/rental/hotel pool, so no need to add anymore, which means no adding of jobs. Their big thing is not new additional lifts, but replacement of lifts, which doesn't add any new jobs....enough rambling by me.

 

[Sick Bird Rider]

Hey, JPT, excellent sleuthing and where did you get that map? How do I see the rest of it? If there is a larger version somewhere, it would be nice to have a link.

Some comments:

- there is a lot of speculation here. It's just a map, made by humans, humans make mistakes. But then, it's the Internet, so why not speculate?

- I don't think the Jet would be moved, simply upgraded as discussed in posts here and elsewhere. Probably the person who made the map simply put the red line a little too far to the left.

- the West Bowl, if it ever happens (see JamesDeluxe's comment), will become many folks' favorite place to ski at Jay Peak. It will be sunny, out of the wind and mostly blue terrain. Ms. SBR will love it!

- the thing that has me worried, and I can't believe it hasn't been noticed, is the interconnect from the upper mountain to West Bowl. If it is where I hope it is, the trail will follow the line at the BOTTOM of BP and Andre's, which would be OK, if not it will cut through those beautiful glades, which would be a tragedy of the highest order. According to the image and comparing to the trail map, it goes right through BP and Andre's. Not good.

- "A new trail around Timbuktu" I agree with RiverCoil, Timbuktu is an overskied glade, it generally becomes a bump run with trees unless you are lucky enough to hit it on a powder day. The new run would follow the line of Corona and The Orchard but would be a fun trail, hopefully a lot like the Derrick. The worst part is that it will give easier access to the Dip and have more skiers hitchhiking back on the 242.

- "Haynes Widened" I think this is another mapmaker's error. The Haynes is very wide as it is.

- "Hells crossing relocated to line up with Heavens road to give easier access to the Jet" Good idea!

- "Angles Wiggle Changed" any change would be good for this cluster&%$# of a trail.

- "Upper Milk Run Entrance changed" who cares? Upper Milk is a ridiculous trail, maybe a new entrance would help. Does anybody ski this trail on a regular basis?

- "Green Beret Exit changed" well, whatever. The Green Beret is one of my faves at Jay but it is hardly ever open, so what difference will that make? Maybe they are planning to declare Pumphouse an official run and this is the new exit.

- for some insight into EB5 program at Jay, click here.

- Yes, a six-pack up Powerline. I am old enough to remember riding the old Bonaventure chair and the Jet T-bar. We would occasionally poach the verboten Red Chair line and carefully avoid decapitating ourselves on the telephone pole guy wires (sadly gone now). I'm sure a few lift towers would not interfere too much with with the ski experience. Personally, I find that I ski better when people are watching. And if you don't then you will able to skate over to Can-Am and ski that with no spectators.

- The Jet T-Bar went up more or less where the current chair is. The UN has always been the UN. If there was a lift on the UN earlier than 1968, I will stand corrected.

Anyway, I say, so far so good, except for the Andre's/BP situation. What is up with that? Walter Elander, are you reading this?

 

[riverc0il]

Upper Milk ridiculous? :lol: I have enjoyed some really great powder on that trail early season. Entrance does tend to be rocky and blown but hey, its got a nice tree island and a bend with good pitch and is overlooked during certain times of the year. I give it an 8.

 

[Sick Bird Rider]

Upper Milk was wrecked by Angel's Wiggle, IMHO. Seems every time I ski it, there are rocks, off-camber moguls, ice and more rocks. I'll take Powerline any day over UM. If you are going to ski on rocks, might as well go straight down the hill. Want double fall-line, let's go to the Kitz! Back in the day, Upper to Lower Milk was more or less one continuous gnarly run, which was quite a challenge. I keep trying to give it a chance but maybe I never catch it on the right day. Where's my rocking chair? You young whippersnappers don't know what you missed way back when.

Thread drift...

 

[JPTracker]

Hey, JPT, excellent sleuthing and where did you get that map? How do I see the rest of it? If there is a larger version somewhere, it would be nice to have a link.

I picked up a copy of it in the Real Estate office in the THL. They actually have a wall size copy of it hanging on the wall of the office. Can see plenty of detail on that one.

Some comments:

- there is a lot of speculation here. It's just a map, made by humans, humans make mistakes. But then, it's the Internet, so why not speculate?

After all it is called a "Conceptual Plan"

- I don't think the Jet would be moved, simply upgraded as discussed in posts here and elsewhere. Probably the person who made the map simply put the red line a little too far to the left.

Agree with you here. It doesn't make any sense.

- the thing that has me worried, and I can't believe it hasn't been noticed, is the interconnect from the upper mountain to West Bowl. If it is where I hope it is, the trail will follow the line at the BOTTOM of BP and Andre's, which would be OK, if not it will cut through those beautiful glades, which would be a tragedy of the highest order. According to the image and comparing to the trail map, it goes right through BP and Andre's. Not good.

The way they have it drawn it starts about a third of the way down that section of Ulers just where it first starts to level out a bit. That would cut Beaver Pond in two with a very short top and a bottom half similar to Bushwacker, a beginner glade. I hope they find a better alignment.

- "Haynes Widened" I think this is another mapmaker's error. The Haynes is very wide as it is.

As stated in a previous post Jay Peak has already started the ACT 250 process for this for widening to meet FIS requirements for safety.

- "Upper Milk Run Entrance changed" who cares? Upper Milk is a ridiculous trail, maybe a new entrance would help. Does anybody ski this trail on a regular basis?

I agree with riverCoil. I like this trail the way it is and will take it most of the time to cut the corner off of Northway / Angles Wiggle. My fear is that they want to redo the entrance so that they can get a groomer through there. The way the entrance is now, ith a steep drop, a groomer can not get through.

- "Green Beret Exit changed" well, whatever. The Green Beret is one of my faves at Jay but it is hardly ever open, so what difference will that make? Maybe they are planning to declare Pumphouse an official run and this is the new exit.

I see no reason for messing with the exit to Green Beret. The trail sees so little traffic why the double exit?

 

[deadheadskier]

One observation and it could be just the way it's drawn. Wouldn't it make the most sense to have the West Bowl transfer lift accessible from the Metro Quad? That way people staying at the main base could quickly get over to the West Bowl instead of having to take the Tram or the Freezer up and ski down to the transfer lift?

Seems to me that it would reduce traffic both in the liftlines early day on both the Tram and Freezer as well as on the trails from near the summit skiing down to the transer.

 

[JPTracker]

One observation and it could be just the way it's drawn. Wouldn't it make the most sense to have the West Bowl transfer lift accessible from the Metro Quad? That way people staying at the main base could quickly get over to the West Bowl instead of having to take the Tram or the Freezer up and ski down to the transfer lift?

Seems to me that it would reduce traffic both in the liftlines early day on both the Tram and Freezer as well as on the trails from near the summit skiing down to the transer.

Where they have it drawn it will be accessible from the Metro Quad

 

[riverc0il]

Upper Milk was wrecked by Angel's Wiggle, IMHO. Seems every time I ski it, there are rocks, off-camber moguls, ice and more rocks. I'll take Powerline any day over UM. If you are going to ski on rocks, might as well go straight down the hill. Want double fall-line, let's go to the Kitz! Back in the day, Upper to Lower Milk was more or less one continuous gnarly run, which was quite a challenge. I keep trying to give it a chance but maybe I never catch it on the right day. Where's my rocking chair? You young whippersnappers don't know what you missed way back when.

Thread drift...

You got me there. Given the obvious split between upper and lower, I figured it was more continuous at one point and I have often wondered how it skied. I might not know what I am missing but I certainly appreciate what that trail might have been like before Wiggle.

 

[deadheadskier]

Okay, just the drawing then. It appears to be just a bit uphill from the metro and a stand of trees in the way.

 

[JPTracker]

- Yes, a six-pack up Powerline. I am old enough to remember riding the old Bonaventure chair and the Jet T-bar. We would occasionally poach the verboten Red Chair line and carefully avoid decapitating ourselves on the telephone pole guy wires (sadly gone now). I'm sure a few lift towers would not interfere too much with with the ski experience. Personally, I find that I ski better when people are watching. And if you don't then you will able to skate over to Can-Am and ski that with no spectators.

Just noticed that they show Powerline widened with a second entrance added.

 

[Sick Bird Rider]

OK, I'll ski Upper Milk next time I'm at Jay and give a full report.

I ski JP on a fairly regular basis with a posse of people who are highly resistant to change. We debate the merits of new lodges, new lifts, etc. etc., on the chair, over coffee and around the dinner table after several glasses of wine. What I have concluded is that this is the way it has been for all time at all ski areas. Can you imagine the discussions that went on on in the 60s when the Tram was built? If the Internet existed back then there would have been a Facebook group to "Save the Skyline Chair."

In ten years, those of of who are still skiing at Jay will look back at this (on some form of electronic device) and wonder (I hope), what were we all so worried about?

Did you ever think about the fact that at one time, all ski runs on a mountain like Jay Peak were tree runs? Except that nobody skied them. Now Jay has made a reputation on those tree runs and they are mainstream runs, just like Northway, Haynes or the Vermonter. At one time, Canyonland was simply "the woods off Northway." So, things change, we adapt, we find new little stashes like Snofree, Pudd's Traverse, Dogpatch and Strawberry (I'm sure some of you have skied those runs and have your own names for them). In my lifetime, Jay has gone from a backwater ski area used mostly by Montrealers to a destination resort of international reputation. For a long time the lodge infrastructure could not cope with skier capacity. Now things have balanced out to some degree but the trail and lift layout needs some help, primarily to recover from planning mistakes of the past. I'm hoping this expansion will solve that.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Not saying there isn't risk (always risk), but they got funding from the EB5 program. This program should minimize risk and significantly increase return. Through this program Jay Peak has aquired around $200-250 million in funds.

Yuck. I didn't realize it was government money.

Well that certainly would alleviate the vast majority of risk to Jay Peak, so now it makes a heckuva lot more sense to be from a financial standpoint. Whenever you're spending someone else's money, risk tends to greatly diminish.

Are you sure about that amount though? One quarter of a BILLION dollars seems so staggering for one private entity to rake in it's tough to comprehend.

 

[jimmywilson69]

It's not government money. It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.

JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map. I'd love to look at it in more detail.

 

[BenedictGomez]

It's not government money. It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.

JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map. I'd love to look at it in more detail.

Yes, but it's a government program is what I meant, not that it's taxpayer money. And I friggin' hate that program. Basically, if you have money, you pay for US citizenship. It's unfair and total BS.

 

[JPTracker]

It's not government money. It's foreign money from people who in return get some sort of Visa.

JPTracker, where can one find a high-res version of this map. I'd love to look at it in more detail.

Go to the Real Estate office in the Tram House Lodge. They have a high res version hanging on the wall.

 

[mikestaple]

The key here it this is conceptual. Hmmmm, how many high flying conceptual enhancements in 2006 got shot down in the real estate debacle starting in 2008?

The wild card with Jay though is the govt money. This is definitely a jobs program for a habitually high unemployment area. So chances are good that at least some of this will go through.

Wait for the hotel and waterpark to wrap up. Then let's see what they enhance next.

 

[luvinjaycloud]

Yes, but it's a government program is what I meant, not that it's taxpayer money. And I friggin' hate that program. Basically, if you have money, you pay for US citizenship. It's unfair and total BS.

so benedict, these investors in the EB5 program create jobs, provide capital, and probably are paying a ton of taxes in this country working and living here and you say BS? you may be confusing this group with immigrants that take our services, get educated on our dime, commit crimes, and pay no taxes. EB5 is a total win for the NEK and our country.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

so benedict, these investors in the EB5 program create jobs, provide capital, and probably are paying a ton of taxes in this country working and living here and you say BS? you may be confusing this group with immigrants that take our services, get educated on our dime, commit crimes, and pay no taxes. EB5 is a total win for the NEK and our country.

Hahaha, good thing I wasn't lazy and decided to read down before responding to benedict. I was going to write nearly the exact same thing.

FYI I have no problem with the immigrants who come here illegally in a sense, or at least I can't blame them. It's risk reward for them and right now there is little risk once they arrive. Can't blame people for trying to make a better life for them and their family. I put more of my displeasure on the US government who for the better part of the last century have done nothing ot remedy the situation. Enough politics, sorry.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Yuck. I didn't realize it was government money.

Well that certainly would alleviate the vast majority of risk to Jay Peak, so now it makes a heckuva lot more sense to be from a financial standpoint. Whenever you're spending someone else's money, risk tends to greatly diminish.

Are you sure about that amount though? One quarter of a BILLION dollars seems so staggering for one private entity to rake in it's tough to comprehend.

From NPR.....his words not mine.

"We've raised almost $200 million of equity capital to transform Jay Peak from a winter-only ski resort to a true 52-week-a-year resort facility," says Bill Stenger, the owner of the resort.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/18/132940734/resort-draws-investors-with-immigrant-visa-program