Jay Peak Conceptual Development Plan (2011-2016)

[riverc0il]

I'm beginning to think Jay Peak is desperately looking up to Stowe, like the unathletic valedictorian who wants to be the high school quarterback instead - he may sadly never realize that being the smartest kid in school was actually really cool, and try as hard as he may he's never going to throw the football better than that quarterback he wishes he was.

I think the exact opposite. Jay is doing its own thing without a care for Stowe. I don't think Jay sees Stowe as a major competitor. Stowe's development is upscale and exclusive. Jay's development is lowest common denominator: kids love waterparks, parents like all in one slopeside park your car and forget about it. Unless you have big bucks at Stowe, you are still staying off mountain and driving in and then going back into town or the access road for evening fun. Stowe is targeting NYC, Jay is targeting Montreal. Jay is throwing everything and the kitchen sink into its base area. Stowe has limited growth targeting resort amenities and upscale resort living. Jay owns their land and can do anything they can get a permit for. Stowe has a lot more restrictions.

I don't know what I feel about Jay any more. At first, I was like "yea, cool, hockey rink, waterpark, whatever." The skiing is still the same, I can deal with the silly development if the skiing is still great. We'll see how things look with Stateside fully built out. I dunno. The skiing can only be so good to allay the general feel of the area. I was putting my boots on in the Tram lodge on Sunday when like a dozen skating families came through with their gear walking towards the Tram Lodge elevator. It just takes me out of the moment, ya know? These other people aren't here to ski... they are resorting. Which is exactly what JPR is going for and doing well at. How good can the skiing be to off set that? If it was almost any other mountain, I'd be done with it already. :-?

 

[BenedictGomez]

I don't think Jay sees Stowe as a major competitor.

I dont either, I just meant it seems to me there's perhaps a case of "resort envy" going on.

I don't know what I feel about Jay any more. At first, I was like "yea, cool, hockey rink, waterpark, whatever." The skiing is still the same,

Well, this is the bit I am worried about. I was there a few weekends ago and it was crazy crowded before lunch. I dont know what happened at about 12:45pm, but it was like it emptied out quite a bit and from then to 4pm was crowded but manageable. But from open to about noon it was so packed it was nauseating. The line for the Flyer went way back up the ski hill! I wouldn't pay $6.90 for a lift ticket for that let alone $69, and thank God it emptied out after lunch.

I'm still a fan of the place, but if situations like that get any worse, I'm out. The reality is that there are only so many buses from Quebec loaded to 100% capacity that the place can handle.

 

[riverc0il]

Were you there on a QC vaca week? I've skied Jay six times this year I think and the only long line I experienced is when the Jet was the only lift running due to wind. Jay certainly is getting more visitors. The snow is tracking out a bit faster. But many of those guests are in the waterpark instead of skiing when it is cold so a bit of a mixed bag. Jay at Peak can be hell. But I've found that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[deadheadskier]

How good can the skiing be to off set that? If it was almost any other mountain, I'd be done with it already. :-?

To each their own, but this kind of view somewhat baffles me.

I moved to Stowe in the fall of 1995 having never even skied there prior. I visited the summer prior and said, "this is where I want to skibum for the winter." I skied Jay for the 1st time that season too. Both places were pretty "raw" and have undergone massive transformations; in someways Jay even more than Stowe with their Water Park.

Despite the changes, I enjoy skiing Stowe every bit as much today as I did back then. I rarely get to Jay, but when I do, I love it every bit as much as I did back in 1995.

I guess the auxiliary stuff doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does some others. If I saw kids walking through the lodge with ice skates, I'd probably think to myself, "Good deal, a few less people on the hill and off doing something else."

 

[riverc0il]

The auxiliary stuff at Jay is much more present than Stowe. If you just ski the Mount Mansfield side, the only change that has really happened recently is the Over Easy *shrug*. Things are a little different over at Spruce but Mansfield side hasn't changed much in a long time.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion about Jay next time you ski there, especially next year once the Stateside Lodge is up and a the Six goes in. Have you been there in the past two years?

I don't know how this view can baffle you. Of course, it isn't how you see things but how does it baffle you that someone else appreciates all of the surroundings as part of the experience rather than just the skiing? Some people enjoy a mountain not just for the skiing but for the vibe a place gives off. Which is one reason Magic is still open, for example. And why Mad River went with a Single instead of a Double when the time came. It is a big reason why many of us enjoy smaller areas like Black NH and Abram ME. It isn't just the terrain. Some places just feel special for some reason we have a hard time explaining. And multi-million dollar investments change those special places and then we don't know how to feel about it because it feels a little different. Maybe you don't subscribe to that but I am surprised that it would baffle you so.

 

[snoseek]

To each their own, but this kind of view somewhat baffles me.

I moved to Stowe in the fall of 1995 having never even skied there prior. I visited the summer prior and said, "this is where I want to skibum for the winter." I skied Jay for the 1st time that season too. Both places were pretty "raw" and have undergone massive transformations; in someways Jay even more than Stowe with their Water Park.

Despite the changes, I enjoy skiing Stowe every bit as much today as I did back then. I rarely get to Jay, but when I do, I love it every bit as much as I did back in 1995.

I guess the auxiliary stuff doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does some others. If I saw kids walking through the lodge with ice skates, I'd probably think to myself, "Good deal, a few less people on the hill and off doing something else."

I agree 100 percent here. I could care less how they spend or build at the base of the resort and honestly am only concerned with what happening directly on the hill....as long as i can park and get on the hill lol.

Vail Resorts has taught me that just because there's a line up at the lift doesn't always mean the good stuffs getting tracked out faster...well maybe at their Colorado properties seeing most of the terrain is low angle.

I should make a point to get up to Jay this spring so I can see the changes first hand, its been awhile

 

[deadheadskier]

Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes. It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there. That's a bit over the top IMO.

 

[riverc0il]

Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes. It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there. That's a bit over the top IMO.

I'm still skiing Jay. Maybe I got a little over zealous in my commentary.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I agree 100 percent here. I could care less how they spend or build at the base of the resort and honestly am only concerned with what happening directly on the hill....as long as i can park and get on the hill lol.

So you're agreeing with both of them.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I agree with DHS and no I haven't been there in 5 years or so. What the new "ammenities" brings to the table in my life, is it is an attractive place to bring the entire family. My son would've been fin with the "old" Jay Peak, because he does like to ski. But he'd love to go skiing and then to the water park at night. my wife, who is an upper intermediate skiier would love that there are other things to do all day than ski and will probably love the west bowl terrain when/if it ever opens.

I think you can still enjoy the skiing and "look past" the "development" at the base. The Analogy to Vail is 100% on. I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is. I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where, and ride the lift to the top and never look back. then I get in my car and go back to silverthorne or Dylan and spend my money.

I kind of understand all the griping, but in my opinion it doesn't change the skiing that everyone has come to love.

 

[Steve@jpr]

I should know better than to wade into the swamp here. I'll add, only, that I agree with bits and pieces of everything--except for the Stowe envy which is equal parts adorable and uninformed. The conversation did spark a lovely memory I hold dear. I was at the first Highgate GD Show in 1994 (I believe) and, with 200 shows under my belt, was definitely a member of Deader-Than-Thou Nation, thumbing my nose at people who I perceived weren't there for the right reasons. I said something to the effect of 'All of these new people don't even appreciate what it used to be like.' My friend, with fewer shows under his belt but at least as much vigor says, 'What people?' Thanks for helping me remember this.

I agree with DHS and no I haven't been there in 5 years or so. What the new "ammenities" brings to the table in my life, is it is an attractive place to bring the entire family. My son would've been fin with the "old" Jay Peak, because he does like to ski. But he'd love to go skiing and then to the water park at night. my wife, who is an upper intermediate skiier would love that there are other things to do all day than ski and will probably love the west bowl terrain when/if it ever opens.

I think you can still enjoy the skiing and "look past" the "development" at the base. The Analogy to Vail is 100% on. I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is. I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where, and ride the lift to the top and never look back. then I get in my car and go back to silverthorne or Dylan and spend my money.

I kind of understand all the griping, but in my opinion it doesn't change the skiing that everyone has come to love.

 

[drjeff]

Doesn't baffle me that people may not like the auxiliary changes. It baffles me that it off hill changes would bother someone so much that they would consider no longer skiing there. That's a bit over the top IMO.

I look at it this way. Skiing/Riding is going on for 8hrs a day, maybe 6 months a year. That's only 1/6th of the total time available in a year. Auxillary "stuff" can often taken place, and draw customers, 100% of the year. If it was just "Jay Peak Ski Area" not Jay Peak RESORT then auxillary items wouldn't be as necessary as they are for a 12 month resort (and the esteemed Steve Wright wouldn't have as much to do year round ).

Auxillary items can 100% have a symbiotic relationship with what initially drew such a devote following in the first place. And just because they might not appeal to some, doesn't mean that they don't apppeal to others. And let's be honest, its the ski BUSINESS, and unless they're turning a profit, then they're risking NELSAP status (not that Jay is anywhere close to that these days, just making a ski industry generalization there, since i'm sure if you polled all the ski resort GM's and marketing directors, even in a GREAT season, they'd still all answer that they want MORE business! )

 

[BenedictGomez]

The Analogy to Vail is 100% on. I never stay at Vail, because of what the "town" is. I park my car, sometimes for free if you know where, and ride the lift to the top and never look back..

You have to pay for parking at Vail?

Iexcept for the Stowe envy which is equal parts adorable and uninformed.

Yes, it was clearly a ludicrous suggestion on my part to suggest that Jay Peak is moving much closer to a Stowe type business model.

Please do forgive me though, I think the excess heat from the Jay Peak Taiga Spa must have gone to my head while I was getting my facial and pedicure.

 

[jimmywilson69]

You have to pay for parking at Vail?

yes, like $20 in a parking garage or lot. Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi) they put it which takes you up to mid vail.

 

[kingdom-tele]

I look at it this way. Skiing/Riding is going on for 8hrs a day, maybe 6 months a year. That's only 1/6th of the total time available in a year. Auxillary "stuff" can often taken place, and draw customers, 100% of the year. If it was just "Jay Peak Ski Area" not Jay Peak RESORT then auxillary items wouldn't be as necessary as they are for a 12 month resort (and the esteemed Steve Wright wouldn't have as much to do year round ).

Auxillary items can 100% have a symbiotic relationship with what initially drew such a devote following in the first place. And just because they might not appeal to some, doesn't mean that they don't apppeal to others. And let's be honest, its the ski BUSINESS, and unless they're turning a profit, then they're risking NELSAP status (not that Jay is anywhere close to that these days, just making a ski industry generalization there, since i'm sure if you polled all the ski resort GM's and marketing directors, even in a GREAT season, they'd still all answer that they want MORE business! )

what is good for business doesn't have a direct correlation with what may be a good experience

 

[BenedictGomez]

yes, like $20 in a parking garage or lot. Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi) they put it which takes you up to mid vail.

I do a lot of things on principal in life, which some people may find silly (or not), but I would not ski somewhere that charges for parking.

Wifi in the gondola doesnt bother me though, to me that's just keeping up with technology. On the other hand, if they put cell phone scramblers in the gondala that wouldn't bother me either.

 

[Steve@jpr]

No, ludicrous is constructing an argument based on the need to dish your silly high school quarterback parable. Not to mention trying to align our business models based off the fact that both of us now have spas. Go take a look at their pricing model/sensibilities, their lack of focus on base area attractions, their lack of shoulder season focus and their lack of discounting, and report back.

And I'm assuming that even we, in dire need to revenue, would stop short of touching your toes.

You have to pay for parking at Vail?



Yes, it was clearly a ludicrous suggestion on my part to suggest that Jay Peak is moving much closer to a Stowe type business model.

Please do forgive me though, I think the excess heat from the Jay Peak Taiga Spa must have gone to my head while I was getting my facial and pedicure.

 

[BenedictGomez]

No, ludicrous is constructing an argument based on the need to dish your silly high school quarterback parable. Not to mention trying to align our business models based off the fact that both of us now have spas. Go take a look at their pricing model/sensibilities, their lack of focus on base area attractions, their lack of shoulder season focus and their lack of discounting, and report back.

Though it was an example I used, I think it obvious that the similarities in newer business paths/models extend beyond the fact both "now have spas", and I never said you and Stowe are going for the exact same customers. Jay is seeking to become very much like one of the few big boys on the block from what it has been in the past. Perhaps Stowe wasnt the best comparison (or perhaps it was the best comparison), but I'll stand by the gist of the point.

And I'm assuming that even we, in dire need to revenue, would stop short of touching your toes.

I'm a finance/accounting person, but I've never handled EB-5 money. It's technically an investment of course, so according to GAAP rules, I believe it should be a liability on Jay Peak's balance sheet and not revenue?

Sounds very complicated though (the EB-5 accounting that is, not the toe touching).

 

[Steve@jpr]

Yes but, and alas, pedicure money drops right to the bottom.

Though it was an example I used, I think it obvious that the similarities in newer business paths/models extend beyond the fact both "now have spas", and I never said you and Stowe are going for the exact same customers. Jay is seeking to become very much like one of the few big boys on the block from what it has been in the past. Perhaps Stowe wasnt the best comparison (or perhaps it was the best comparison), but I'll stand by the gist of the point.



I'm a finance/accounting person, but I've never handled EB-5 money. It's technically an investment of course, so according to GAAP rules, I believe it should be a liability on Jay Peak's balance sheet and not revenue?

Sounds very complicated though (the EB-5 accounting that is, not the toe touching).

 

[drjeff]

yes, like $20 in a parking garage or lot. Then it's still 2-300 yards to the ticket window (through the "town") which is right at the bottom of the new gondola (with wifi) they put it which takes you up to mid vail.

$25 bucks a day in the parking Garages at both Vail Village and Lionshead. $33 a day at Beavercreek Both charge just during operation hours and not during evening "restaurant hours" They do have a pretty good, free shuttle service that runs around the majority of lodging areas in Vail and a seperate one at Beavercreek. But to ride the shuttle bus that runs the 7 or 8 miles between Vail and Beaver Creek, it's $8 for adults and $4 for kids. When my family was out there a few weeks ago, we stayed at Beaver Creek, but when we went to Vail, we actually drove as it would of been $24 to take the bus for me and my wife and our 2 kids, but $25 to park the suburban we had, and then we weren't at the mercy of the bus schedule for the extra $1.

Kind of sucks for sure. But it is what it is, and frankly once we got on the hill there, if they had been charging $50 to park, I wouldn't of complained. Since it's the hill that gets you there (a common theme the last few pages of this thread)