killington closing day - sunday 4/25

[thetrailboss]

As I said in the other K-Mart post, I understand the anger, but venom only galvanizes the management in its decisionmaking and convinces them that some customers are just never going to be happy regardless, so why make an effort. Instead, the tact I would use would be, "look, from its inception until when ASC took over, Killington made a profit evey year except for its first. This was because Pres Smith had the "first to open, last to close" model and it worked" rather than yelling insults, posting Chris Nyberg's daughter's Email address for folks to use to harrass her as a way to get to her Dad, and showing a sense of entitlement. There's a reason why the management turns a deaf ear to some folks. I'm not defending what they have done, but I can see that they are probably definitely motivated not to open now that people are yelling at them and have resorted to attacks. If you were a business owner and your daughter got nastygrams from people she hadn't met, would you be rolling out the red carpet for those folks?

 

[marcski]

The problem that I have is that over the years Killington was relied upon as the area that would open first and close last. Year after year they strived to have the longest season in the east. A lot of people here who are complaining are coming to the realization this will be gone for ever, unless you are within driving distance of Sugarloaf/ Sunday River. I can drive there in 3 hours. Tough for a day trip, but doable. People from the NY metro area are losing this late season option, some of which who have real estate in central Vermont, so they are losing some of the value of their investment. Powdr Corp is a privately held co, and can do as they please. I would think that if they had said May 2 nd is not looking good right now, we plan on closing midweek to preserve the snow base and will reevaluate by Thursday, I would think the reaction from their customers would of been more positive than the flaming they are receiving.
This has turned into yet another bad PR move on their part and as Geoff has stated, they will lose more money than what was saved by their recent announcement.
I hope John Cummings is reading all this "free customer feedback" and learning from these decisions.
If this involved a Boyne resort I am sure SK would of chimed in by now and set things straight...

You really think that Killington closing 1 or 2 weekends earlier in May is going to lower real estate values in central Vt.? Come on now......

 

[Geoff]

You really think that Killington closing 1 or 2 weekends earlier in May is going to lower real estate values in central Vt.? Come on now......

No, it's a large mix of total mismanagement by the new owners and management. When they showed up, they peeled 2 months off the traditional 7 month Killington season. This year, they said they were going to do a 6 month season and didn't even achieve that. They're running so lean on staff that the place falls over when it is stressed. They're really slow to get lifts going when they ice. Holiday weekends are a total debacle for the walk-up day ticket people who are looking for equipment, lessons, and edible food. The list is lengthy.

Have they contributed to the decline of real estate values at Killington? Absolutely. Here are the traffic counter numbers on the Access Road for January and February. Real estate values in town are tied to rental income. Midweek business has collapsed and you can't come close to covering costs from weekend-only rentals at peak season. ...and these tools think they're going to successfully develop and sell real estate with a crashed real estate market where selling prices are less than replacement cost. Not friggin' likely.

 

[riverc0il]

With the real estate collapse happening pretty close to the time of the sale of Killington, how much can real estate values be tied into management of the ski area? How about the A41 Pass when discussing traffic on the access road? A lot of that traffic was driven by extremely low cost multiple mountain season passes in which skiing a lot led to a really low cost per day season total. Not operating in October or May would lessen Access Road traffic and business profitability during those months, but how much of a percent of the big number are we really talking about? The Real Estate market was over built and over valued everywhere so I can't believe the management change led to that much of a drop compared to the Real Estate collapse. And if a few businesses need to close due to less demand, well, that is just the way the marketplace works. Either change and innovate, do something better than your competitors, offer a different or better product, or go out of business when the well dries up.

 

[campgottagopee]

posting Chris Nyberg's daughter's Email address for folks to use to harrass her as a way to get to her Dad,

Soooooooooo not cool----whomever did that over friggin ski area closing should seek help, and I mean fast. WOW :-o

 

[ozzy]

would you be rolling out the red carpet for those folks?

Rolling out the red carpet? How about doing what they said you were going to do as they've been promoting that for over a year..

 

[deadheadskier]

Soooooooooo not cool----whomever did that over friggin ski area closing should seek help, and I mean fast. WOW :-o

you mean your family doesn't get threatening emails when you give someone a raw deal on a car? :lol:


yeah, that's pretty messed

 

[campgottagopee]

you mean your family doesn't get threatening emails when you give someone a raw deal on a car? :lol:


yeah, that's pretty messed

Nope, just me:lol:

It's crap like that that really bother me. I know it shouldn't but what the hell are some people thinking??? I blame rap music ;-)

 

[thetrailboss]

Rolling out the red carpet? How about doing what they said you were going to do as they've been promoting that for over a year..

My point is that those who go overboard are ruining it for the others.

 

[skiadikt]

adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:

for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ...

during asc's 11 seasons commencing w/ that historic 1996-97 season, they averaged 196 ski days and were still open as late as may 15 as recently as the 2004-05 season. we all know the asc story but the long season was not really a contributing factor in their financial failure. more likely a victim.

during powdr's 3 yrs, the average is 160 days w/ this season's 153 ski days the lowest since 1962-63 when they had 148 days but were still open until may 5 during an era when i'd assume there was much less snowmaking

regarding entitlements etc, because of it's history killington is held to a higher expectation than other ski areas. for years their longer season meant not just a week or two longer than the competition but blowing them away. it was one of the things that set them apart. and those expectations were raised this season by the beast image makeover, marketting & blogging an early may close and a perceived increased snowmaking on supe this year. many folks had drank the kool-aid and were even talking late may or june so when the plug's pulled been pulled a week earlier than announced with superstar looking skiable, it should be no surprise that a lot of people are pissed.

the cruelest joke may be the changing forecast. at least on the accuweather 10 day, it's showing only a chance of showers next wednesday with cooler temps for the week and mostly sunny with temps in the low 50's for what have been the closing weekend.

 

[deadheadskier]

when you put it in that context, it really shows how significant the season has been shortened since P Smith. 61 days is no small change.

 

[powbmps]

Great post.

adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:

for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ...

during asc's 11 seasons commencing w/ that historic 1996-97 season, they averaged 196 ski days and were still open as late as may 15 as recently as the 2004-05 season. we all know the asc story but the long season was not really a contributing factor in their financial failure. more likely a victim.

during powdr's 3 yrs, the average is 160 days w/ this season's 153 ski days the lowest since 1962-63 when they had 148 days but were still open until may 5 during an era when i'd assume there was much less snowmaking

regarding entitlements etc, because of it's history killington is held to a higher expectation than other ski areas. for years their longer season meant not just a week or two longer than the competition but blowing them away. it was one of the things that set them apart. and those expectations were raised this season by the beast image makeover, marketting & blogging an early may close and a perceived increased snowmaking on supe this year. many folks had drank the kool-aid and were even talking late may or june so when the plug's pulled been pulled a week earlier than announced with superstar looking skiable, it should be no surprise that a lot of people are pissed.

the cruelest joke may be the changing forecast. at least on the accuweather 10 day, it's showing only a chance of showers next wednesday with cooler temps for the week and mostly sunny with temps in the low 50's for what have been the closing weekend.

 

[Greg]

adding more numbers to trailboss's data from another thread:

for the 20 yrs starting w/ the 1978-79 season running through asc's first year in 1996-97, killington averaged a staggering 221 ski days - a season approaching 7 1/2 months. no doubt who the king of spring was and who would have the most reliable snow. btw, it was during this period that k enjoyed it's peak popularity with skier visits topping 1 million during the late 80's. coincidence or was there a madness to pres smith's business model that actually worked ...

during asc's 11 seasons commencing w/ that historic 1996-97 season, they averaged 196 ski days and were still open as late as may 15 as recently as the 2004-05 season. we all know the asc story but the long season was not really a contributing factor in their financial failure. more likely a victim.

during powdr's 3 yrs, the average is 160 days w/ this season's 153 ski days the lowest since 1962-63 when they had 148 days but were still open until may 5 during an era when i'd assume there was much less snowmaking

I think the most obvious contributing factor in all this is simply the cost of energy really started to spike in the early to mid-2000's. Gas/diesel fuels especially had a major jump after remaining consistent in the mid to late 90's:

Maybe, someone here knows exactly how much Killlington's snow making relies/relied on diesel fuel for air? Anyway, making a lot of snow in the fall only to watch it melt is not an option anymore. Neither is stockpiling all winter if spring skier visits don't provide a good return. I know all us internet expert talk about marketing value, blah, blah, blah, but I'm pretty sure the bean counters at Killington have considered all this.

Hopefully new low energy snow making technology will make for more cost effective snow making, but I'm afraid that the longer the average season is 160 days, the least likely they will be to try and extend it.

Nevertheless, I agree that the best approach would be for Killington to shut down midweek after the 25th and reopen for a final weekend in May. That seems like a fair compromise.

 

[Geoff]

Maybe, someone here knows exactly how much Killlington's snow making relies/relied on diesel fuel for air?

Your logic is broken.

Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June. You can't use a blip of extremely low energy cost years to make your case. You have to look at the data from 1975 onwards.

The way Killington has been run under POWDR has chased away an awful lot of customers. They pretty much completed Les Otten's plan of using Sunday River to capture the metro-Boston market. The data is there on the internet with a state traffic counter on the Access Road and state-published Sales, Meals, Lodging, and Alcohol tax revenue for the town. Since skiing is pretty much a zero sum game in New England, those people ended up elsewhere. From where I sit, POWDR and Killington are incompetent at running the business. It has cause a significant regional economic hardship since the ski resort is the dominant economic driver in Rutland County.

 

[thetrailboss]

The cost of energy and labor certainly have made a difference.

 

[Geoff]

I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week. The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even. If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.

 

[Riverskier]

I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week. The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even. If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.

Good point. While the exact value derived from being able to market a long season, and from creating goodwill with your customers may hard to ascertain, it seems almost incomprehensible that the potential loss from operating an extra week could exceed the future losses associated with the early closing. Sure, 95% of their customers hung up the boards a month ago and don't know or care when they close, but it doesn't take many lost season pass sales or family vacations to make this decision a losing proposition.

 

[SkiDork]

The cost to spin one lift for a week is small

Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL. He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.

Does that sound at all reasonable?

 

[campgottagopee]

I'd also add that the snow is already on the ground so Killington has zero incremental snowmaking cost to run another week. The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even. If 10 people get pissed off and don't buy season passes, closing early likely ends up being a net loss.

If by 10 people not buying season passes = a net loss then something is waaaaaay wrong. I have no facts to back up my statement, but logically thinking a few thousand bucks shouldn't make or break a place like K. I'm sure I'm wrong tho.

 

[thetrailboss]

He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.

Does that sound at all reasonable?

WTF? :blink: