killington closing day - sunday 4/25

[Riverskier]

Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL. He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.

Does that sound at all reasonable?

No way! I am far from an expert on this and couldn't even give a reasonable estimate, but I can confidently say if you dropped a zero you would be closer.

 

[Greg]

Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June.

Really? That's surprising.

 

[marcski]

After looking at powbumps' thread and his pics from yesterday at K, I might have to agree that K could have and perhaps should have tried to make a go for 5/2 even if superstar was the only trail open. Those pics look great.

 

[Bubbartzky]

Does my post really sound like I am bent out of shape? Simply pointing out that the situation resolved of it's own volition, and there is no need to perpetuate it. Perhaps I am just grumpy because I am on crutches and recovering from achilles tendon repair surgery instead of looking forward to the trip I had planned to the Loaf this weekend.

Been there...I feel your pain. Totally ruptured mine playing basketball on a nice June afternoon 13 years ago. Followed doctor's instructions to the letter, did my rehab religiously, and was skiing by Christmas.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Originally Posted by Geoff
Killington swapped in low E guns so the overall cost of snowmaking, inflation adjusted, is lower than in the 1980's boom years when Killington ran October to June.

Really? That's surprising.

Curious how many guns have been replaced by e-guns? I have seen few e-guns in the pics that have been posted this past winter. While they do reduce energy costs they require more maintenance to keep them going. Talk to any of your snowmaking friends, snowmakers will tell you that due to low compression they are constantly jamming up. Keeping SS open back in the day depended more on heavy equipment moving the snow onto SS and that cost needs to be included in your comparison.

The overall cost of snowmaking is high, inflation adgusted nonwithstanding but that's only one piece of the cost of trail maintenence. Comparing kmart today to the late 1980s boom years might make an interesting discussion but has no merit when your managing the business of operating a ski resort in todays environment for a variety of reasons. Looking forward, making tough decisions that will effect next year, 5 years down the road, that's what they should be doing.

Back in the boom years of the late 80's the VSSA reported state skier visits over 5m, in the last 5 years it's been in the range, 3.8-4.3m despite VSAA's emphasize on getting back to 5m. They have predicted 4m for this past season but I'm going with 3.9 as the only nice warm sunny spring like weekend we had this season was Easter weekend, at least up here in northern Vermont.

Things have changed bigtime since the late 80's. Comparing this past season to back then as a base of your
argument is a hard one to make.

Granted, come November and kmarts SP sales are down and can be tied to the closing a week early than planned issue, than yours and others predictions will be proven right.

Personally, I don't think it will mean much partly cause a majority of the kmart regulars who are upset will still buy a SP and people's attention span is very short even for contentious issues like this one. If come November SP sales are up then this proves the opposite, at least in my view.

 

[drjeff]

Geoff, when they cancelled the Killington Klassic mogul comp a few weeks ago I was speaking to one of the coaches about why they couldn't run it on OL. He said the cost to run the OL quad for 1 day was $10,000.

Does that sound at all reasonable?

WTF? :blink:

Probably closer than one might think. I know I was quite suprised to read this post, on the Mount Snow passholder site from their GM, Kelly Pawlak, about Mount Snow's late season plans for this year, and the last couple of years, and what it takes for profitability. This was posted on March 29th: (I did the highlighting with respect to profitability)

"In 05 we closed on April 10. In 2006 we closed on April 9. In 2007 we closed on April 15 (closed the midweek prior.) 08 was a long season and we closed on April 27 with a few midweek days closed. 2008 was the year that our competitors (including Killington) closed early so we took advantage of it and had decent numbers until we closed. Last year we closed on April 19 with the midweek prior closed. You should associate our fan gun installation and new owners with an emphasis on early openings. And once we hit April (and often in March) we run in the red. So running "Carinthia only" saves $$ but we would need thousands in attendance to turn a profit. Luckily, we look at the profitability of the entire season not each individual week."

 

[Riverskier]

Been there...I feel your pain. Totally ruptured mine playing basketball on a nice June afternoon 13 years ago. Followed doctor's instructions to the letter, did my rehab religiously, and was skiing by Christmas.

This is encouraging, thank you for posting that! My Dr. said 6 months to complete recovery (running, skiing, etc.), but good to know that is really an accurate timeline. I have had ACL surgery in the past, so I am fmailiar with rehab and take it very seriously.

 

[Geoff]

If come November SP sales are up then this proves the opposite, at least in my view.

The Vermont Department of Taxes publishes retail sales numbers broken out by town and by month, quarter, and year. The decline at Killington since the Park City boys showed up has been constant. Q1 numbers won't be out until June but they have been correlating quite well with traffic counter numbers on the Access Road which are available on the state DOT site. I'm expecting Q1 to be down yet another 5% year-over-year based on what the traffic counter looks like.

Killington doesn't release skier visit or season pass numbers so there's really no way to get the numbers without getting somebody fired. The pass office manager is a friend of mine but I'm not going to put her in a position to lose her job by asking the question.

 

[oakapple]

The cost to spin one lift for a week is small and they sell enough day tickets to come pretty close to breaking even.

Is that a fact or a guess? One thing I know is that the cost of being open is far more than just the cost of spinning a lift. A lot of ancillary services, and the staff to operate them, need to be in place: ski patrol, mountain ops, security, cleaning people, bars, restaurants, rental and ticket sales, hospitality, etc. I suspect the reason they are closing is because the economics are not anywhere close to breaking even.

 

[moguler6]

I love all of the comments now on the Killington Insider page. Hahahahaha

 

[ski_resort_observer]

The Vermont Department of Taxes publishes retail sales numbers broken out by town and by month, quarter, and year. The decline at Killington since the Park City boys showed up has been constant. Q1 numbers won't be out until June but they have been correlating quite well with traffic counter numbers on the Access Road which are available on the state DOT site. I'm expecting Q1 to be down yet another 5% year-over-year based on what the traffic counter looks like.

Killington doesn't release skier visit or season pass numbers so there's really no way to get the numbers without getting somebody fired. The pass office manager is a friend of mine but I'm not going to put her in a position to lose her job by asking the question.

Don't need the specific numbers just whether sales went up or down will do it. In the past 3 years Powdr has publically announced in a Rutland Herald, usually from Tom, not the numbers but that SP sales increased over the previous year. He also has been quoted in TV reports and articles about the Vermont ski business getting ready for the new season in November regarding SP sales at kmart. Reading it in the paper or watching it on WCAX TV news about how SP sales went shouldn't jeopardize anyones job.

 

[Geoff]

Is that a fact or a guess? One thing I know is that the cost of being open is far more than just the cost of spinning a lift. A lot of ancillary services, and the staff to operate them, need to be in place: ski patrol, mountain ops, security, cleaning people, bars, restaurants, rental and ticket sales, hospitality, etc. I suspect the reason they are closing is because the economics are not anywhere close to breaking even.

I just go by what people who used to be involved with Killington in a position to know like Skip King and Steve Wright tell me. Jay Peak is operating. They have the same costs as Killington and sell a heck of a lot less day tickets in May.

 

[Geoff]

Don't need the specific numbers just whether sales went up or down will do it. In the past 3 years Powdr has publically announced in a Rutland Herald, usually from Tom, not the numbers but that SP sales increased over the previous year. He also has been quoted in TV reports and articles about the Vermont ski business getting ready for the new season in November regarding SP sales at kmart. Reading it in the paper or watching it on WCAX TV news about how SP sales went shouldn't jeopardize anyones job.

If a Killington employee told me how many unrestricted, blackout, and college passes they sold, they could get fired for it.

Tom Horrocks has zero cred. They're not a public company so they can say whatever they want about skier visits and pass sales. If you look at real data from the state, they can't possibly be up unless they are cheating the state out of sales tax revenue.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I would think the year they took over and increased the price of a SP from the below market A41 product they would be hard pressed to have an increase in the number of SP's sold but obviously the revenue per pass went way up.

Found this interesting thread about the same topic
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=16926&highlight=season+pass+sales+powdr

 

[Bubbartzky]

If a Killington employee told me how many unrestricted, blackout, and college passes they sold, they could get fired for it.

Tom Horrocks has zero cred. They're not a public company so they can say whatever they want about skier visits and pass sales. If you look at real data from the state, they can't possibly be up unless they are cheating the state out of sales tax revenue.

Total skier visits could be up but sales tax revenue down in Killington. Easy explanation is that people are still skiing but buying discounted ticket packages, spending less money, staying in Rutland or other, lower priced places, or spending one less night here to save on lodging. As for Tom's cred...use your own judgment.

 

[dmc]

staying in Rutland.

With AndyZ ?


Sup Bubba?

 

[Bubbartzky]

With AndyZ ?


Sup Bubba?

Nada. Working, posting, done skiing for the season...You?

 

[Bubbartzky]

This is encouraging, thank you for posting that! My Dr. said 6 months to complete recovery (running, skiing, etc.), but good to know that is really an accurate timeline. I have had ACL surgery in the past, so I am fmailiar with rehab and take it very seriously.

You out of the cast and in a boot or does your doc have you spending the whole 6 - 8 weeks in a cast?

 

[Riverskier]

You out of the cast and in a boot or does your doc have you spending the whole 6 - 8 weeks in a cast?

Had surgery April 12th and I am actually in a splint right now. First follow up on April 30th and the Dr. said I will go into either a boot or a cast and will start being able to put some weight on it. 6-8 weeks is the timeline he gave me for full weight bearing and a regular shoe. Hoping for the 6!

 

[Rambo]

I think that probably someone out in Utah at POWDR Corps headquarters made the decision to close Killington on April 25th and Nyberg and staff have no choice but to defend the higher ups decision.